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Back live to Los Angeles, we'll be able to show you a letter of the paragraph that Mark Furman was just asked if he said.
The words written in the letter, he said, absolutely not.
You told us yesterday that you do not know, as I understand it, an Andrea Carey.
That's correct.
Can you recall at any time a blonde woman suggesting that she had an attractive but tall friend?
No.
You recall at any time in the presence of Joe Foss being asked by a woman if you were interested in a date?
No.
Never happened that you can recall?
No.
Is there anything that you would remember if it had occurred, being asked for a date in the presence of Joe Foss?
I think in the presence of anybody if I was interested in the woman or it went farther than that, I think I would probably remember it.
Let's assume you weren't interested.
You said, hey, you're not my type.
Brushed her off.
Would you remember being invited on a date if it had happened there?
I would say not.
Okay.
Would you remember, Detective Furman, if you had used the language that we have just reviewed?
Yes.
That is important enough language to you so that it would impress itself on your memory as did the meeting with the Simpsons in 85, is that correct?
Yes, sir.
You told us yesterday that you do go into Hennessey's temple.
Yes, sir.
You do not have a recollection of the name Andrea Carey being there?
We're on Andrea Carey now?
Yes, yes.
To hear?
Thank you, sir.
You don't remember the name Andrea Carey, a woman over six feet high or a woman in the company of someone you now know to be Kathleen Bell?
No, I do not.
Did you have a conversation in 85 and 86 in Hennessey's Tavern with a tall woman wherein you said that black men who have white women in their company are violating an act of nature?
No.
And that you would arrest them whenever you saw that occur?
No.
That did not occur at any time?
No.
And is that the kind of language or expression, Detective Ferman, that you would remember clearly if those statements had been made?
Yes.
So as of the moment, you would say that if either Kathleen Bell or Andrea Carey claims that you made those statements, that would necessarily be false?
Yes.
And that if Joe Foss, the Marine, says that he in fact introduced you to Kathleen Bell outside the recruiting station as she emerged from a coffee shop, and that the two of you talked about a date, that would necessarily be false?
That's correct.
Howard, it's boiling down to the defense says every cop is either incompetent or corrupt.
Now the prosecution is saying everybody who says something about one of their witnesses is a liar.
It certainly seems to be boiling down that way, and usually the truth is somewhere in between the two extremes.
So how this is all going to boil down and play out in front of the jury, we're going to have to wait until Kathleen Bell testifies and this other woman testifies.
But then it's going to be who do you believe, Mark Ferman or Kathleen Bell, Andrea Turner, or Mark Ferman?
Well, if Kathleen Bell and this other woman and Joe Foss and this other Marine testify, I think the jury will probably reject Detective Ferman's representations as to his statements and maybe even as to his racist beliefs.
But then that doesn't mean that he planted the glove.
So that's the second boundary that the defense has to get over.
And they haven't even gotten over the first obstacle yet.
We won't know until the other witnesses testify.
You think they've soiled Mark Ferman enough to cloud the jury's judgment?
I don't think they've soiled him enough yet.
When these other witnesses come in, I think he will be soiled.
But that in and of itself won't be enough to prove that he planted it, although they have opened up some questions as to his behavior behind the air conditioning vent.
The question then becomes, will they be able to reach one juror, two jurors, maybe 12 jurors?
Doubtful.
But it only takes one to hang the jury, and then there are other theories that are floating out there.
So this is a long way from being over.
All right.
Mr. Bailey with his photographic mind's having a problem finding something here.
We approach him.
All right.
They're going to go to the sidebar.
Howard, how far is F. Lee Bailey from being finished, do you think?
I don't think that he is close to being finished.
If he is, then certainly this cross-examination was more than it was touted to be, and we certainly haven't seen what we expected to see.
My guess is there is still more material out there.
He still has a considerable amount to go, and they may be discussing whether or not they're going to break now and continue tomorrow or continue on further today.
What about the testimony there towards the very end with Kathleen Bell?
Why not read her statements or why not force him to read those statements?
Why, as inflammatory as they are, why brush through them so quickly?
Well, what Kathleen Bell says is hearsay.
However, before you can have Kathleen Bell testify as to what Detective Furman says, you have to, under the evidence code in California, give Detective Furman an opportunity to either admit or deny.
Otherwise, you can't use what's called the impeaching character witness.
I see.
Howard, Mark Furman has been there now for the better part of four days.
If you go by what the people who watch this religiously think, a lot of people are very impressed with him.
A lot of people are very disgusted by him.
How do you ever gauge, as an attorney, what a jury is going to do?
The public opinion is so split.
You know, I hear lawyers and experts all the time talk about what they believe juries think and what they feel and how they'll perceive evidence.
In the 17 years that I've been doing this, I have yet to be able to figure out what any particular jury is going to do.
Each jury is unique.
Each juror is unique.
And then when 12 jurors get together, they take on a collective identity that in and of itself is unique.
So the answer to your question is, is we're going to have to wait to see what the jury does, because I don't know that anybody can predict what they're thinking, what they're feeling, let alone what they're seeing and hearing.
And Howard, isn't it also true?
Excuse me, I sound like I'm F. Lee Bailey.
Don't juries usually surprise, not usually, quite often surprise attorneys with what they come up with?
It has been my experience that jurors, when it's all said and done, after all the haggling, after all the motions, after all of either the misleading and leading nature of questions, generally speaking, do the right thing, sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes maybe not for the right reasons.
But it's been my experience that the jury system really works.
We have a lot of faith in it, or most people do, and there's good reason to have faith in it.
And I see a lot of people now concerned that maybe one juror will get misled.
We don't know what this jury is thinking or doing.
This trial is far from over.
We need to sit back, let the evidence unfold, let the jury reach a decision, and then we can judge it.
But when it's all said and done, it's still the best system in the world today.
Howard, your grade, give Mark Fuhrman a grade.
I think Mark Fuhrman has done an excellent job.
I think he's remained unflappable.
I think that Mr. Bailey is trying to agitate him, trying to engage him.
He's sitting back. He's answering yes. He's answering no.
He hasn't gotten a rise. Mr. Bailey hasn't gotten a rise out of him yet.
The question is going to be, will these other witnesses be able to tarnish the credibility of Detective Fuhrman
so that when the juror looks back on him and says, you know, if he lied about this, he may be lying about that.
And if he lied about those two things, well, just maybe.
Maybe he could have planted the glove. I have a doubt.
Now they have to determine if that doubt's reasonable.
So it is the beginning for the defense of attempting to plant the seeds of doubt.
All right. Thanks very much, Howard.
We're going to continue to monitor here at the Satellite Center.
If the judge doesn't break at 6 o'clock, as he has told the jury he's going to do, we'll take you back live to Los Angeles.
In the meantime, let's go to 7 News at 6.
All right. Thanks a lot, Patrick. I'm Rick Sanchez, along with Jessica and Gary.
This is 7 News at 6 o'clock.
Obviously, we're watching round two of Bailey versus Fuhrman.
In the meantime, what we want to do is we want to go out to California and Los Angeles,
where Shepherd Smith is the only South Florida reporter still covering this trial.
Let's turn her over to Shepherd.
Jessica, fireworks promised.
Fireworks delivered this afternoon as the continuation of the Fuhrman versus Bailey continues to go right along.
At a loss for words here, as many people are, because many had expected that this afternoon there would be a great deal of this sort of bandering back and forth.
Bailey had hoped that at some point Fuhrman would open the door, so to speak, to more questioning,
and that's exactly what happened just about 20 minutes ago.
Attorney's begin battling over racism. Who said what and what is relevant?
The trial within a trial, the trial of Mark Fuhrman.
We claim that he's gone out of his way in this case to hurt a black man that he saw with a white woman.
And he claims a man named Max Cordova can prove Fuhrman has the tendency.
Claiming an incident at a Marine recruiting station some 10 years ago is just the beginning.
And Fuhrman turns on Cordova and says, let's get something straight. The only boy here is you, nigger.
These allegations get more outrageous by the minute, and I'm stricken again by the preposterousness of the claims of the defense.
We have interviewed Max Cordova twice, and he has never indicated any such thing to anyone who's interviewed him.
Let them call the witness. I want to hear him say this. The court's never going to hear it.
I have spoken with him on the phone personally, Marine to Marine.
I have the slightest doubt that he'll march up to that witness stand and tell the world what Fuhrman called him on no provocation whatsoever.
But I want this film clip saved forever, because this is going to be very funny where the actual witnesses take the stand.
And he well may. The judge ruling the testimony will be allowed.
Now Bailey begins appointed probing cross-examination of Fuhrman, beginning at the moment Cato Kaelin told the detective of the bumps in the night behind his room and Fuhrman's subsequent search for an origin.
Detective Fuhrman, is it not true that as you decided to walk out to the source of the noise, you decided to go alone?
I was already alone, sir.
No, you were with Kaelin, who could have taken you out there, I suppose. Could he not?
I'm sure he could have.
You were with Detective Van Adder, the lead with whom you never discussed your plans, correct?
No, I wasn't with him. I yelled to him. He was in the kitchen.
You were in the same building with him, were you not?
Yes.
You were the gentleman that had to stand at Dorothy and Bundy for an hour for a lack of instruction. Are you not?
Yes.
And you decided without confiding in anyone to go alone behind that building, correct?
Correct.
Alone is certainly the key. In fact, F. Lee Bailey trying to establish that he went there alone with a purpose, that purpose being, according to Bailey, to plant that glove.
He went on to great lengths to explain that Detective Fuhrman had kept all the other detectives busy, asking the other detectives to interview Kaelin, asking Kaelin to stay in his room.
Then going outside, finding the glove allegedly, and then searching around, looking for other evidence for 15 minutes, according to Bailey, before he ever notified any of his superiors or anyone else on the scene of the presence of that glove.
Again, trying to establish that there was time for this detective to plant the glove and that there was motivation.
The questioning has just ended for the day. The players were in sidebar. They've just decided to call it for a day.
They'll be back at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning Pacific Coast time, noon Eastern time, and of course we'll be here to cover it for you live in Los Angeles.
Shepard Smith, 7 News.
All right, thanks a lot, Shepard. Continuing our Team 7 coverage now is Patrick Frazier.
He and Howard Finkelstein have been monitoring this trial all day long.
Patrick, surprised a bit, the demeanor displayed by Detective Fuhrman.
He's not the guy that he was painted to be. And then speaking of painting, let's bring in Howard Finkelstein.
Howard, in your opinion, has Eftle Bailey, through circumstantial evidence, soiled him enough, painted him dirty enough to be a racist cop to cloud the jurors' judgment?
No, he has not gotten there by a long shot. He has laid the groundwork to possibly bring in other witnesses who may be able to tarnish that image and paint him as a racist, but he hasn't gotten there yet.
All right, Howard, let's listen to one example. Here's the question to Mark Fuhrman, a very pointed, very volatile question, and here's his response. Let's listen.
During those years, did when you see a nigger driving with a white woman, you pull them over?
No.
Do you recall anyone asking you, if you didn't have a reason to pull them over, what would you do?
I don't recall anybody ever asking me that question, sir.
Did you ever make a statement that if you needed a reason, you would find one?
No.
So Howard, Eftle Bailey yesterday promised circumstantial evidence that would prove beyond the doubt that he was a racist who planted the glove. If that's the circumstantial evidence, it doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
No, Patrick, it doesn't prove it. However, it does lay the groundwork. If Kathleen Bell, if Ms. Terry come in, and we have also this Marine come in who testified to these conversations, well, then the jury will have certainly enough evidence to conclude he's a racist.
Whether or not they'll go the next step and decide that he planted a glove, well, the defense has got a higher obstacle to jump over in that regard.
All right, Howard, you talk about the defense laying the groundwork. They've been laying the groundwork for days and days. It's time to start building the building here.
We're going to be back tomorrow at noon. Mark Furman and Eftle Bailey, we'll bring it to you live.
All right, thank you, Patrick. Thank you, Howard. You can keep it right here on 7 News for the very latest on the Simpson trial.
We're going to bring you continuing coverage of events inside and outside the courthouse and coming up at 630.
Shepard Smith, back with a live report from Los Angeles.
Other news we're following today. Metro-Dade police investigating the murder of a farm owner this morning.
Police say the owner of the Junaik fish camp got into a heated argument with the camp's caretaker.
That's when police say the caretaker pulled out a shotgun and killed the other man.
The caretaker is in police custody. Still no word on the identity of the other man.
Well, we now know more about a man who died while attempting to break out of a Fort Lauderdale prison.
Police say John Fogelman, a serial rapist, was serving eight life terms.
A 33-year-old died last night while trying to escape from the Broward County jail.
Fogelman broke out of a window and tried to climb from the building with a makeshift rope made from sheets tied together.
The sheets didn't hold and Fogelman plunged to his death.
Prison officials are now inspecting all windows and doors.
A six-year-old pompinal beach boy is now in the custody of his aunt after starting a fire that killed his brother and cousin.
Police say the boy had a history of starting fires and his latest one was Sunday in an abandoned van.
Both two-year-old boys died in that van. No charges have been filed, but the boy will live with his aunt, we are told, until a final decision is made.
It is a mother's cry of despair, and we now have the front a call made to 911 when the little mother of little Eric Oliphant realized that something was wrong.
Last Wednesday, Tangela Freeman told her neighbor to call 911 because she said something was wrong with her 15-month-old son.
Too distraught, she was unable to call herself, so she had a friend call 911.
Police say the boy was beaten to death. Freeman's 17-year-old boyfriend, Darrell Walker, now faces first-degree murder.
Police say the boy was beaten to death.