Although they pitched at different times, my two guests, one retired and one active,
have much in common, including being left-handers who effectively used power and guile to get
batters out. And they also had to constantly prove they could still pitch at an advanced
age in baseball. I welcome back Yankee broadcaster Jim Cot and Al Leiter. How are you doing guys?
We are gathered here today to eliminate the slider forever in baseball. Wouldn't that
be great? I don't think Al would agree with me. I'm obviously kidding, but to me, we'll
get right into this. The slider, and I've said it on the air, is the most dangerous
pitch in baseball. I think it goes farther than any other pitch. When a mistake's made
with it, just open it up to two guys who throw them. Well, I would say I wouldn't be sitting
here without a slider. But my slider, what I thought was a slider that was taught to
me by Ron Guidry through Dave Rigetti, evolved into what was a cut fastball. That I just
kept overthrowing it, and all of a sudden the catcher said, boy, that's a cutter. And
maybe it might differ from what you're saying about a slider, but it makes a lot of sense
because of the fact that it's closer to fastball velocity and it doesn't have the big break
that the overhand curveball guys that used to throw, that your danger zone is smaller
and the area in which, if you don't execute, can get hit as a result of the lack of depth
on the breaking ball. I go back to, of course, Timmy caught one of the great left-handers
of all time, Steve Carlton, and playing with Lefty and then being in St. Louis near the
end of Lefty's career, and hitters would come back and say, I can take that slider now.
I can check. You remember you used to check with the first base umpire before a game and
say, be alive because Lefty would get so many right-hand. Now all of a sudden guys are,
they're spitting on it. And my own personal story, I was 44 years old, Whitey Herzog brings
me in to face Claudel Washington, Joe Torres managing the Braves. He counters with Bob
Watson, who always gave me a lot of trouble, a bold big right-hand hitter. I get him two
and two and I said, I'm going to try to throw him my hardest slider outside corner and see
what happens. Well, he swings and misses. I see him the next day around the batting cage,
he comes over to me and he said, when did you come up with that change-up? I said, you
know, that's the tell-tale side. That was my heart. But the point being is, the older
a pitcher gets and if he's dependent on a slider, you lose, as you say, the tilt of
the slider and it becomes a mediocre fastball where guys like Casey Fossumy against the
Yankees doesn't throw hard, but he threw that big off-speed curveball and they learn
to add and subtract and they're much more effective than the guys that throw the slider
because like you said, it's such a dangerous pitch unless it's thrown in the perfect spot.
Remember before the show, Kitty was talking about how with the hump and the curveball,
the guys who particularly pick their legs up, that's enough to throw off the timing
whereas the slider, for whatever reason, the release is not enough and that's why those
pitches are so damaging, I think, in the game today. And it's an easy pitch for a catcher
to call with a runner on it third because he gets away, he's calling for a breaking
ball but he's getting away from a breaking ball going down in the dirt. And I used to
know a lot of catchers who would take the safety first approach and call for the slider
because it's going to have a parallel break to the ground and nothing down here to where
they have to block it and perhaps prevent a run.
Well, it's interesting we're talking about this because it's apropos for me. As a result
of age, I don't throw as hard. You know, I used to throw in the mid-90s, my cutter slider
was 90-ish, I threw it harder, so now everything slows down. So with the lack of velocity and
the break being not as large, you're right, Kitty, they take it better. If you've noticed
a few games that I've done well, I've thrown more of a bigger, slurvier, slower curveball
that the speed and the bigger break has helped get out.
And I watched the first game you pitched against the Red Sox on TV and I remember you from
back to your Toronto days where the word was, Al's going to throw a cutter, cutter, cutter.
To me, that was the best you used the outside part of the plate. And then you had, I think,
another game against Kansas City where you really used, and another reason I point that
out is because I think the slider is a more dangerous pitch now than it was when I pitched
because the hitters are stronger. They're using these 31-ounce bats and the slider that
used to get in their ground ball, they get enough of it and even when they shatter their
bat, you know, they're much more apt to time a pitcher in and out versus a pitcher that
adds and subtracts.
That's right.
Okay, let's stop there because we've talked about this a lot.
We're going to have to stop there anyway because we've got a commercial, but we're going to
come back on it, okay? I'll be back with Al Leiter and Jim Cot right after this.
America's number one brand. More Americans choose Chevy than any other brand.
Meet the all-new 2007 Chevy Suburban with a rear-view camera system, power remote lift
gate, head-curtain side airbags in all three rows, and power release fold and tumble second
row seats. Every big family is going to want one. The all-new Chevy Suburban.
They used to try to dribble with special glasses.
What I would do is I would put glasses on. They were plastic glasses and they covered
everything from half an eye down, so you couldn't see anything here. And I would put chairs
up so I could see the chairs, but then I'd have to dribble the ball through the chairs
and turn and dribble without seeing the ball.
Former U.S. Senator and New York Nick Bill Bradley joins me next week on Chevrolet's
Tim McCarver Show.
This is a test of the emergency alert system.
I am back with Jim Cot and Al Leiter. Al, of course, now pitching for the New York Yankees
and Jim after a 25-year career over which he won 283 games. And I've got to tell you
folks that I had one of the more memorable experiences of my life when two years ago
Kitty invited me to his house with Sandy Koufax, Bill White, and Bob Gibson. The five of us
there and the wine was flowing and the stories were flowing. And I'm telling this one of
the great experiences that I've ever had, particularly with Koufax, a man that you started
against two times in 1965.
Well, of course, Al has become very friendly with Sandy and it's been a treat for me after
having faced him in 65 to be able to call him a friend. That was a real thrilling experience
for me that night as well. I wish it could have gone all night. But when I first saw
Sandy, they were getting ready to start game two of the World Series. In those days there
was one game on TV on Saturday, Pee Wee and Diz, Pee Wee Reese, Dizzy Dean. So I never
saw Koufax pitch in person. I never saw him in spring training. And now the bullpen in
Minnesota, we're not too much farther apart.
This is Bloomington, right?
Yes.
Of course.
Than you and I are. And it's cold and it's raw and my eyes are watering because he's
got that capsulin all over his back and he's whoosh and I'm whoosh. And we start the game
and they didn't have as good a hitting team as we did. And we get, I think, through the
top of the third and I came in and sat down next to Johnny Sane, our pitching coach. I
said, John, if I give up a run, this game's over. I said, there's nobody can hit this
guy. Where'd he come from? I mean, he looked so superior to any, you talk about a combination
of power and control and, you know, fluid motion. And if you see pictures of Sandy when
he had that arm, I mean, it was almost like his fingertips would hit the ground.
It was almost like a Michelangelo from pitching, I'm sure. And he's conveyed a lot of that
pitching technique to you, Al.
Which earlier we were talking about, I think right before the break, about inside and outside.
And that's one thing, Sandy, I have become friendly with him. It's an honor and something
that I cherish because of how private he is and how he embraced me. And I just, he's
a wonderful man, as you both know. But messages he would call, you know, after a game, he
is watching, you know, from afar, he's watching. That away, next time when you got the outside
corner, nail it, he'll hang up. You know, stuff like that to reinforce what you're saying.
But quickly, the style, we all have different styles. You had a style, I have a style, Ren
Johnson, Roger Clemens. You know, to transform a style later in your career as a result of
not having as good a stuff is difficult to do, which is the demise of a career. And that's
why you retire and you go home, because they tell you you can't do it. But for just to say,
well geez, throw it outside more, you know, get it on the outside corner. Arm angle, I've
done this for years, and it's hard to stay inverted, keep your thumb underneath the ball
and, you know, get carried through the outside part of the plate. Because of, as a result
of my success, and not just talking about me, but whoever it is based on their success,
it's always been inside, inside, inside. And now, you know, I have to do something else.
That's probably, so it's not as easy to just say, well, geez, you know, throw more outside.
It's an adjustment because of the way you release the ball that you found very difficult
to make at this particular time. My ball always cuts. Right. And I think probably the worst
slogan for pitchers over the last 20 years has been, boy, he can pitch inside. You gotta
pitch inside. And if you ask Kofax and Gibson, you throw inside, you pitch outside. And what
left-hand pitchers had when they were younger, you could do the same thing. I mean, I kind
of reinvented my motion when I was 36 years old, but if you start... How'd you do that?
What Johnny's saying, when he said, you know, he said... Oh, with the quick pitch when you
went to the White Sox. Yeah, I said, you know, my arm's fine, but I got no life. So he said,
you speed up the motion. Because I just want to get to this, because this is something
that it doesn't bother me in the sense that I'm upset by it, but I think we cannot compare
generations. And I think I said it on the air with you and Joe during the ALCS about,
you know, I think Roger Clemens, as a result of all of the rule changes, not one has benefited
the pitcher since 1968. None of them. That's correct. No question. Quetz-Tec, the stadiums,
guys are stronger. Right. Height to the mound. Height to the mound. But it's a different
time. And Kitty, and even Sandy, and whoever these guys. Bob Gibson, we'd get thrown out
in the first inning. Hitters are protected. They have these elbow pads. That bothers me.
They get in there and they all die. Frank Thomas was probably about one of the first
ones. You throw that ball. If it wasn't off the plate, he was smoking it. And he hit...
Barry Bonds. All of them. And they have this big pad. It's supposedly a medical issue.
It's wrong. It's a shield. They get in there, they're... There we go. Itcherow, right there.
Itcherow's got one. A-Rod, my teammate. So then they're... All right, I'm defensive as
a result of it. But when you say you have to pitch away and show in or whichever, I agree
with that. If you don't have enough... It's danger zone. There's the happy and the half.
But it's different... Hold that thought. It's a danger zone for us because we've got to
go to a commercial and hear from... Pay some bills and we'll be right back with Al Leiter
and Jim Cot. Elegant hotel accommodations for Chevrolet's Tim McCarver show are provided
by the Kimberly Hotel, offering spacious suites plus true hospitality in the heart of Midtown
Manhattan's Eastside. When you choose New York, choose a suite at the Kimberly. Introducing
the all-new 2007 Chevy Tahoe, with available features like a power remote liftgate, power
release fold and tumble second row seats, and rear view camera system. Chevy Tahoe, an American
revolution. Let's face it, appearances count. That's why so many men and women searching
for effective solutions to hair loss come to hair surgery specialist Northwest. Dr. Marla
Ross and her staff are the most experienced and respected team in Portland. We're not
a franchise. You'll speak to a surgeon, not a salesman. Our touch is personal and caring,
assuring you a positive result today and in the future. It's the natural choice. You'll
like what you see. Hair surgery specialist Northwest. Get online or call us today for
your free consultation. Chevy builds the most dependable, longest lasting trucks on the
road. From compact pickups to full size SUVs. Find out more. Go to Edmunds.com and click
head to head. Chevy, an American revolution. Chevy Silverado has more standard payload
and towing capacity than Ford F-150. And now Silverado starts over $2,000 less than Ford
F-150. Chevy, America's number one brand, America's number one value. America's number
one brand. More Americans choose Chevy than any other brand. One of the things that's
missing in major league club houses, and I hope you agree with it out there, is you don't
get a lot of this, of the talking. We used to do this all the time over a couple of beers
or stuff. Talk about the game. Talk about how you're pitching as you were saying now.
No, no, no. No, no, no. That's good. I get hopped up on it because the game has evolved,
which is good. You know, and it's going to continue to evolve. And the next generation
of players, they're going to have some other little nuance that I think.
But explain the stuff you were talking about during the break about Questex. Fascinating.
Well, the Questex was brought in so that the Eric Greggs of the world, who is no longer
on firing, doesn't have the last pitch of a game five of the NLCS for LaVon Hernandez
to get strike three on Freddie McGriff that was that far outside.
Like he did in 1997, and you remember the Marlins.
Right. But as a result of that, the plate has now
been purposely pulled in with this Questex thing, which is only in 10 stadiums and umpires
now. It doesn't behoove them to call as many strikes as a result of the criterion. I don't
want to get too technical, but they're given two inch leeway off the plate, which is the
width of a baseball that if they were to call a strike, it is considered an acceptable and
it doesn't go toward their correct and incorrect. And they have to be at a percentage of 90%
of correct calls in order for them to be considered for all star and postseason. And they have
families and they have livelihoods and extra money and all that. So, you know, the plate
is is what it is, but it's a little narrower. You're doing away with guys like Jim Cot and
Tommy John and and you know, Tom Glavins and you know, people who were under the speed
limit, if you will, because you got to be on the plate more. But it's much more difficult.
As a result of this, you're basically training clubs to scout big guys that can throw, you
know, 95 plus to be able to make mistakes on the plate more often. You can almost make
a case for the fact that Glavin and Maddox were responsible for Questek and responsible
for Sandy Alderson. But the thing that and I talked to Sandy Alderson a couple of years
ago about this and I think that could get what could get this back in order for the
pitchers and could make the low pitch effective again, is that one time there were a thousand
pitches we'll say that were borderline that were right about knee high. And of those thousand,
I would say 90 percent of them were strikes that were called balls. And that's the pitch
that's missed more than if you see a side angle of a hitter and the catcher will catch
the ball down there and there'll be a ball. But when you see it, it comes across that
front knee. It's the most missed call. Right. And so if you started calling that pitch and
then to me the best two zones to start pitching hitters when you get a hit are don't worry
about three inches off the plate or three inches here. But if you have that box between
the knees and the shoe tops and up here over the plate, you know, as a hitter you can look
outside and check. You can look inside. But if it's here or there, it looks like a strike.
You get a lot more swings at it. And I think by beginning to call the legitimate low strike
consistently, you'd be able to get the pitchers where they could throw the ball down. And
even if Frank Thomas dove after it, you'd have a chance to get a ground ball. And I
don't want to just bore us here with this, but watch how many games whoever just into
this baseball stuff, how many times that as Tim McCarver, the catcher where the catcher
will set up, he wants it about low thigh high and he catches it at his mass and ball umpires
continue to credit hitters for not pitching, not hit swinging at pitches. They should drive.
You watch a ball, watch a ball game. You can do the pitch right there. And I actually had
a tape that was given to Sandy Alderson of many pitches that were the little above the
belt plate coverage too, because this is what a hitter will tell you. If I could cover it,
I'm okay with that. Now, then you say, well, we don't want to live upstairs. You're, you're
right, especially at 88 higher than higher than high. Call more. You call more of those
hitters, call it, say, you know what, if I could cover it and I know he's going to call
it, I can hit that. How many times have you seen Timmy where you watch a game and the
guy will end up, you know, either that's a ball and then this pitch here, that's not
a high pitcher high pitches right here. Yeah. Up here is out of the zone. Yes. But there
are many guys that can also waffle that ball and hit it really far. Hold it right there.
We're going to go to Chevrolet. We'll be right back. Jim Cot and Al Leiter right after this.
For more information about Chevrolet's Tim McCarver show, go to www.timmccarver.com.
Send your questions for Tim to info at timmccarver.com. A round of golf, a lifetime of memories.
It's simple. One family, one vehicle. The all new 2007 Chevy Suburban. Every big family
will want one. Suburban, an American revolution.
Now through February 28th, get $2,000 in total savings on the Legacy Special Edition.
Thinking about buying or selling a home? Trust Windermere to give you great professional service.
With Windermere, buyers can explore entire neighborhoods online or in person with an
expert agent. Sellers, you can rely on Windermere's 30 years of local experience to help sell
your home at the best price quickly. Find out more about Windermere. Go to the yellow
box at khu.com and type in New Home Portland. More Americans choose Chevy than any other
brand. From cars to trucks to SUVs. Find out why. Go to Edmunds.com and click head to head.
Chevy, an American revolution. The all new Chevy Impala has a 211 horsepower V6 standard
and Impala now starts over $2,300 less than Cambry LE V6. Chevy, America's number one
brand, America's number one value. America's number one brand. More Americans
choose Chevy than any other brand. I'm with Al Leiter, a pitcher for the New
York Yankees and Jim Cot who's a Yankee broadcaster and once said, if you were to quit, there'd
be 5,000 people ready for your job. You weren't talking about a show like this. But what a
great opportunity that you and I've had and Al, you too with your experience in the post
season the last couple of years to have a chance to look at the game from a different
vantage point and look at it from up high and the game does look easier from upstairs.
No question and I have a lot of people to thank you being one of them. In my early days,
you know, we used to sit on the bench in Philadelphia and you were preparing to be a broadcaster
then I got a chance to work with Dick Enberg and then Dick Stockton and of course the Yankee
gig I've had. You worked with Bill White? Right, Bill White and Scooter but I'm really
grateful to Tony Kubeck because when Tony retired he kind of recommended that they hire
me and like I can't imagine what it would be like having to do games for a team like
Kansas City because in New York every day there's an urgency to win and I wanted to
kind of dovetail along we were talking about before the break. I want people to know that
today it is tougher to pitch in my opinion than ever before so I wouldn't ever want
to come across as an old time, wow this is the way we used to do it and it was easier.
I think Quest Tech, the size of the strike zone, the fact that they lower the mound,
they give the hitters the armor, they've got lighter bats that you know if Mickey Mantle
could have swung a 30 ounce bat who knows what would have happened and I think to equalize
that, if they would go back to making the line of the batter's box six inches inside,
give the pitchers that area to pitch in, take away the body armor and make the strike zone
legitimate from top to bottom, I think that would give the pitcher a fair chance. And
perhaps raise the mound at the same time? Yes, raise that mound back up. It went from
15 inches to 10 inches after the 1968 season when Gibson had the 1.12 ERA, Marischal won
26, Kofax had since retired but another reason that you suggest that Roger Clemens perhaps
is the greatest pitcher ever? Do away with the DH and every fourth batter has to go up
with a blindfold. Do away with the DH, plus you know that I think we talked about this
at one time, Timmy, the slope by raising the mound, this might be a stretch but I think
it would eliminate some arm injuries. I do too. You know the pitching motion is gravity.
It's not like you're pushing off as much as if you have a 15 inch mound you're falling.
Guy like Randy Johnson at 6'10 can really use that to his advantage and it might minimize
a lot of back problems and a lot of arm problems. When you think about it, what they're asking
pitchers to do now is to keep the ball down the same way from a flatter surface. It would
make sense if you raise the surface, you're coming down easier on the shoulder, easier
on the elbow, easier on everything. You were talking about the slope. In many cases the
height of the mound is important. Obviously if I'm up further I could come down on you
harder but it's the slope for me that is very important and every foot it's an inch. I think
it's an inch for every six feet and the same during the break every foot. Teams used to
be able to doctor the mound and when they knew the league was coming in some teams would
raise the plate so when you measured the slope they would say well this looks legitimate
and then when they'd leave town you put the plate back down and you haven't tinkered with
the mound but now you've got your good slope back and like you said that's what a pitcher
wants is that slope. And Dodger Stadium has always been suspect since they lowered the
mound. No pitchers complained about Dodger Stadium but your remark was interesting about
the spike marks even in the eighth inning. I got to pitch there because the Angels played
in Dodger Stadium before the Big A was built in 1966 and when I got on that mound and you
know then the damp air, guys weren't hitting ball out of the ballpark like they are today.
In the eighth inning you could still see your individual spike marks which was important
to a pitcher because when you put that foot down it's like you're gripping gripping the mound.
Yeah I was a fastball curveball pitcher I don't think I ever pitched a game in Dodger Stadium
that I didn't feel good about my curveball a lot of that was because of the mound. We've got to
take a quick break and we'll be back with Al Leiter and Jim Cot right after this.
Infused with sophistication and refinement the Bull and Bear is the only New York City restaurant
to serve prime grade certified Angus beef the highest quality of USB. For reservations please
call 212-872-4900. Chevy builds the most dependable longest lasting trucks on the road from compact
pickups to full-size SUVs. Find out more go to Edmunds.com and click head to head Chevy
an American revolution. Chevy Silverado has more standard payload and towing capacity than Ford F-150
and now Silverado starts over $2,000 less than Ford F-150. Chevy America's number one brand
America's number one battle. Know anybody like our little friend here who ticks twitches makes
strange sounds who just can't seem to stay still. You may know someone a kid or a grown-up with
Tourette syndrome a neurological disorder that's often misunderstood and a lot more common than
you think. People with TS can't help it. You can by calling the Tourette syndrome association
for the facts at 1-888-4-TOURETTE. 1-888-4-TOURETTE. Go beyond the carrier stores and save money too
at Car Toys. New activations, upgrades, family plans, prepaid phones. We can do anything the
carrier stores do plus save you money for a limited time at Car Toys. A Verizon Wireless authorized
agent get this cool camera and speaker phone with picture messaging for free plus up to four
additional color screen phones also free. Additional lines only $9.99 each. Everybody goes home happy.
I'm back with Jim Cott now lighter and guys I haven't done this in a long time and I can't
tell you how much I appreciate your candor and I wish you well. About this talk you
mentioned about the baseball talk with the beers we got Chevrolet coffee mugs. Well that's true
coffee mugs with water. Thanks a lot for watching. Hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. See you
next time.