I'm Leslie Stahl. It's an exciting finish. Michael Dukakis is hoarse from a rousing week of overflow rallies.
Hardly complacent, George Bush has been fiery and aggressive.
The latest CBS News New York Times poll shows Bush with a nine-point lead.
He tells you that he's on your side?
No, he's kidding.
But the people who made up their minds in the last few days are going to Dukakis two to one.
And a full quarter of the voters say they could still change their minds.
Even while Bush's people say they're confident he holds a firm grip on enough electoral votes to win,
the narrowing of the race in several of the large states is making the campaign nervous.
The candidate is not letting up.
He may want to be on your side, but I don't think the American people want to be on his side.
Dukakis appears to have the same strategy. Attack, attack, attack.
Indeed, it's the new fighting mic that is bringing out giant crowds.
According to our new poll, it's also his sticking to one clear populist message.
I'm on your side, the other guy isn't.
Where was he? I'll tell you where he was, working on a plan to give the wealthiest one percent of the people in this country another $30,000 tax break.
That's where George Bush was.
And I've been trying to make some news for the last three or four weeks. Now put me on the air.
Don't watch Dan Quayle's lips. The Bush campaign does not want him on the air.
They've even left him out of their TV ads.
One Democrat said if Bush wins, it's because Willie Horton is better known to the American people than Dan Quayle.
Do Dukakis' running mate Lloyd Benson doing the Watusi?
Well, why not? He's coming out of this campaign with newfound popularity, even star quality.
And I tell you, those Republicans are dropping like a rock in the polls.
If Bush does win, will the Democrats give him a tough time?
We'll ask vice presidential candidate Lloyd Benson.
And we'll talk with Barbara Bush and two of her children, Dorothy and Jeff.
Victory is at hand, for which man? An issue facing the nation.
From CBS News, Washington, Face the Nation, with National Affairs correspondent Leslie Stahl.
The vice president's family, Barbara Bush's wife, Dorothy Bush LeBlond, his daughter, and Jeff Bush, one of his sons.
Thank you all very much for getting up so early in Los Angeles to join us.
Welcome, Mrs. Bush. How are you feeling?
I feel great, Leslie. How are you?
I'm great. I hear that you're tired and that the vice president can't sleep.
And actually, I've also heard that you've been very nervous lately.
I know that some of the polls are tightening up. Are you worried?
No. But I'm nervous before I play a tennis game or I'm nervous before I give a talk.
And as far as not sleeping goes, I was with George Knight before last. He slept ten hours.
Of course, everybody's a little bit tired, but we feel good and physically fit.
Well, you know, our poll shows that George Bush is ahead by nine points.
But there's another poll, the Wall Street Journal NBC News poll, that shows that it's only five points.
It does seem to be tightening up. What are you hearing from within the campaign?
Are people worried or are they as confident as you are?
I'm not confident. I mean, I think we've run a wonderful campaign, and I'm really proud of it.
And I'm really proud of George and the stability.
And so we're going to go down the wire, working as hard as we can, trying to get every vote we can for George Bush
and for a lot of our very good candidates who are running around the country.
I don't feel confident. I don't feel tired. I don't feel discouraged. I feel great, just as you should feel just about now.
Are you going to be the first lady, do you think?
I'm not going to think about that until last Tuesday night.
I want to ask you, though, you said stability. What did you mean?
Well, I think George, for 14 or 15 months, has had an enormous amount of criticism, heckling, whatever.
And he's been stable and strong. And he's, you know, he's been the leader of our camp all along.
And I feel very proud of him and very proud of our campaign.
Well, let me ask Jeb, if I may, about one finding in our recent poll, which is that a vast majority,
62 percent of the American people, think this has been a more negative campaign than ever before.
And in fact, more people blame your father for it.
And all the late deciders who are going overwhelmingly to Dukakis appear to be doing that
because they think that the Bush campaign, and Bush specifically, has been so negative.
Do you think that if he wins, this is going to hurt his ability to be a leader, to be the president?
Well, first of all, my dad has a great ability to heal wounds.
And if he becomes president, I know that that won't be a problem.
Secondly, you know, to compare one's views and philosophy with your opponent,
particularly when the opponent to begin with was trying to hide his views from the American people,
it's fair game. That's not negative campaigning.
And I've seen clips of Michael Dukakis right now ridiculing George Bush and his programs.
I think he's raging a much more negative campaign now.
My dad has spoken out on all the issues, whether it's negative or not, is a question of definition, I think.
Well, it's also, at the moment, a question of public perception.
Your father did say that Michael Dukakis was an ice man. He said that he lacked sensitivity.
Now wait a minute. If we're going to play that game, we've been called a racist, a liar, you know, every name.
Hitler, wimp. I mean, we can go right down the line, starting at the Democratic convention.
And every single thing George Bush has said in his ads or said about Michael Dukakis has been documented.
And when you talk about name calling, but they don't count.
The thing that counts is the basic, decent George Bush that shows through.
And I think the American people will see that.
But what did Jeb mean about the healing?
There have been some stories that if he wins, that George Bush would go to Boston and make that kind of a public gesture of peacemaking.
I gather you haven't heard that. You look very surprised at that.
I haven't read that one.
No, but I've read about a lot of things on both sides, you know, cabinets picked on both sides.
I suspect that's not been done yet.
Well, what did Jeb mean about healing? What would he do?
He just said he's a healer. He's the person who's always worked in a bipartisan fashion. And he has.
Well, you know, what is unusual about this campaign is that the candidate himself would become the one to make the attacks.
In the past, that's been the role of the surrogates. They've left it to the vice president.
George has an attack. He's just run on his record and Michael Dukakis' record.
Ah, come on.
That's true. I mean, so, you know, you've got to be fair, Leslie.
That's what George has done, documented facts.
I'm, you can't persuade me that he has run a dirty campaign because he hasn't.
But, you know, I want to ask Dora a question, but first let's just pursue this for a minute.
It is the public perception. And these people who are deciding late, they seem to feel it very strongly.
And I know that Jeb said something about healing.
I have also heard this from senior people in the campaign, that George Bush, if he wins, will make very public gestures to extend himself to try and erase.
That's the way he is, though. I mean, he's always been a healer.
Dora, let me ask you. Have you been surprised to see your father?
I mean, your mother says he hasn't said anything, but there are these, what I think are personal, to say that Michael Dukakis lacks human compassion or to suggest that he's not patriotic, even though the other side has come at you.
I mean, that's obvious.
Well, I think those are suggestions that were made by maybe the media or other people.
I agree with Jeb and my mother that he is talking about issues that our opponent doesn't want to talk about.
And what really hurts me is when my father is called a racist, a Hitler, silly, pathetic.
I mean, these are all words I've heard from the other side.
And so, no, I'm very proud of my father and what he's done and how he's run his campaign.
Leslie, I think you have to put this all a little in perspective.
At the Democratic convention, the former president of the United States called my father silly and effeminate.
And other people got up there and the rattier the comment about George Bush, the bigger the applause line.
Just because George Bush has pointed out that Governor Dukakis has a lousy furlough program or that he vetoed the Pledge of Allegiance, somehow he's running a negative campaign.
I just don't think that's fair.
Okay.
Let me ask Mrs. Bush to confirm or deny a story that is out in Newsweek this week. There was a lot made of the selection of Dan Quayle as a private decision by George Bush,
one that he sort of sprung on even his own advisors at the convention, maybe even you at the convention.
But Newsweek says that, in fact, a month before the convention, that Jim Baker and Nicholas Brady went on a golfing weekend with Dan Quayle, interviewed them,
and then gave their approval for or their endorsement for a Quayle decision.
Have you known nothing of this?
Never heard that. No. And I don't believe that, Leslie.
I mean, George looked into a number of people. He had numbers of people that he talked to and got advice from.
And he got it from all of us, didn't he?
Yeah.
Every single one of us gave him our advice loud and clear.
But did it come as a surprise to you? I think it did. You said so at the convention.
No, I said that he told me on the airplane coming down, and I said to him, don't tell me. I'll bet it's Dan Quayle on the airplane.
He said, how'd you guess? And I said, well, I looked over that list, and he just seemed like such an obvious choice, and he still seems like an obvious choice.
He's done some wonderful things. You know, I've been campaigning around the country, and this did the Job Training Partnership Act,
and Dan Quayle is responsible for that act, and if he didn't do another thing in his life, it makes him the most eligible, compassionate man.
It's a wonderful program, helping people get off welfare.
Let me ask you a final question, which is sort of a summing up question.
You have traveled. You've been campaigning. It's been a long trek from Iowa to Super Tuesday to the convention to now,
what some people in your campaign are calling Tension City the last two days.
I bet they are in both campaigns.
I bet you're right. But have you learned any lessons from this, and what are they?
Yeah, I've learned enormous respect, not only from my children, but for George and for the traveling staff.
I'm sure the others at home who probably have a much harder job, but I think we have run a wonderful campaign.
We've had the same people from start to finish. They've been good. They're loyal.
And I top it all with the fact that we couldn't have done it without the wisest, most decent, greatest leader.
George Bush.
Mrs. Bush, if George Bush wins, I hope that you will continue to be a public spokesman,
not only for the president, but for yourself.
And I do thank you all, Jeb and Doro and Mrs. Bush, for being our guests this morning.
And fight on, as they say.
Thank you.
Thank you. And we will be back with Senator Lloyd Benson.
Chicago, Senator Lloyd Benson, running mate of Michael Dukakis.
Senator, you heard Mrs. Bush say that the negative tone of the campaign from the Bush side is only in response
to some pretty vicious remarks made, mainly at the convention.
Was it racist, wimp, weak, effeminate? It was pretty rough, wasn't it?
Well, let me say that Barbara Bush is a wonderful woman, and those kids standing up for their father, that's great.
And it's interesting to see how Kitty Dukakis stays right in there and fights for Mike and their kids do.
My wife has been with me every step of the way, except when she's off campaigning.
My two sons out campaigning, my daughter. It really becomes a family endeavor.
But now let's get to this point you're talking about.
Both conventions and all conventions get into that kind of partisan, partisan needling that happens.
But what we're really concerned about is what was paid commercial advertising, where it was carefully programmed.
And they were doing emotional things, attacking the patriotism of Mike Dukakis, and that's just outrageous.
The man that served in South Korea, very effective governor of the state, has a great love for his country.
They were doing emotional things, appealing to some of the worst emotions of people.
Took the Willie Horton case and built it into a national issue.
When that was a furlough program that Mike Dukakis inherited from the preceding governor, he changed that furlough program.
Well, let me ask you this. George Bush has said that Michael Dukakis would make America a more dangerous place
and perhaps even create an economic disaster.
Do you think that George Bush would be a bad president? Do you think he'd be bad for America?
I just think Michael Dukakis would be so much better, and that he relates to the concerns of the working men and women of America.
You know, this country isn't just for a privileged few.
We have to see that the middle-income folks are represented, too.
But let me, you've campaigned against George Bush before. You actually beat him in a Senate race in Texas many years back.
What kind of a man is he? What kind of a president do you think he would make if he should win this election?
Well, I don't want to get into personalities. I think, you know, I heard that comment about someone calling him a racist.
I was asked that question, and I said, absolutely not. I don't consider him that at all.
But we're talking about effectiveness as a leader, making the tough choices, making the hard decisions.
And I think Michael Dukakis is a man that would do that much more effectively, and that's why I strongly support him.
Now, why won't you tell us what you think of what kind of a president George Bush would make?
Well, I've told you very carefully that I think Michael Dukakis would make a far better president, and I'm going to keep it in a positive vein.
Oh, you want to turn positive now?
No, I don't want to turn positive. I've been positive all the time, time and time again.
We've tried to talk the issues in this campaign, and we've had the clutter in the airwaves of all these 30-second commercials that have been negative, negative, negative.
And the American people are tired of it, and I think there's a reaction against it.
And I believe that's one of the reasons the polls are turning our way. I think there's been a backlash to it.
Well, our poll does suggest that.
You said this week at one point that you thought if Bush were elected that he would have a, quote, awfully short honeymoon.
And other Democrats around the country are suggesting and saying right out that they're not going to do anything to help him.
Do you share that view? Would you think that the Democrats would give him a tough time because of the tone of this campaign?
Many have said so flat out.
Lastly, you can't have any mandate if you happen to win with that kind of a negative campaign, and it just encourages more of those in the future.
But let me state, this country's problems are so serious with the debt that we have, with the deficit in the budget and in the trade deficit,
that we have to rise above partisanship and work together, whomsoever is the president, to try to resolve these problems, and I'll work to do that.
You know, that's what I hired out for.
I'll agree with the president when I think he's right, and I'll disagree when I think he's wrong.
But do you think that the Democrats as a whole would gang up on George Bush if he were president?
Not ganging up, no.
But I don't think he gets any body points for the kind of campaign he's run.
It's been an extremely negative one, so that doesn't give you any mandate.
But whereas we're talking about things of national importance where the country's at stake, of course we'll work together and try to do what we think is right.
If we don't think it's right, we're obviously not going to do that.
One of the few specifics that he has actually campaigned on is cutting the capital gains tax virtually in half.
Michael Dukakis has campaigned very vigorously against this.
You in the past have supported cuts in capital gains. If you are the Senate finance chairman, if that should happen, what would you do about that?
This president sends that up to you and your committee.
Well, first I expect to be vice president, but if I happen to be still chairman of the finance committee, I work to bring the capital gains tax down.
You know, it was up to 49.125, far too high.
We brought it down to 28 and then down to 20.
But on the 86 tax bill, the administration came in and said, let's move it back up to 28 because we'll pick up hundreds of millions of dollars,
and that will justify bringing the top rate down for a fellow that makes a million dollars a year to 28 percent.
That's the lowest of any major country in the world. They can't have it both ways.
Now, George Bush comes in and says that if he lowers the capital gain tax from 28 to 20 or 15, we'll make more money to the Treasury.
Now, just two years ago, they were arguing that it works the other way, and that is a contradiction in terms. So you just can't do it.
Well, do you want to leave it?
And let me say this too. When you cut the top rate down and get it down to 28 percent and you have the other capital gains come up,
that's trying to equate new tradeoffs so you don't just favor the rich in these things.
But if you cut the top rate down to 28 and then you come back and say you're going to lower the capital gains some more, you're sure favoring the wealthiest in the country.
Now, what would you like to do?
Middle-income people. Well, I wouldn't do that.
Well, where would you like it to be when Congress comes back next year, whatever position you're in?
Where would you like those two numbers to be, the top rate for the wealthy and capital gains?
Are you saying you'd like to see capital gains go down and the top rate go up a little?
No.
No? What are you saying?
Well, I think you'd keep it where it is. You know, one of the things we voted on in 86 when we did that massive change in the tax system,
we went on record, a vast majority, to hold that thing for a while, to stabilize it, to let people understand what the tax system is, to give them some continuity.
Well, the Vice President is proposing all kinds of tax breaks, including one for the oil and gas industry in your home state of Texas.
What would you do with that one, if you proposed that?
Well, what you have on that one, where you're talking about some incentives for the small independent to try to encourage more energy independence,
you've got to do that for national security for our country and to try to cut down on the trade deficit.
So you support that. But does that not also begin the unraveling of the tax reform?
No, no, because you've got the alternative minimum in there that, you know, we had a situation where somebody could make a million dollars a year and pay no taxes, and that was wrong.
You had a situation where a company was making $600 million a year, paying no taxes, and some fellow making $30,000 a year working for it and paying taxes, and he said something was wrong with the system.
He was absolutely right. And that's why we put the alternative minimum in there, to see that that doesn't happen again. And we have to keep that.
I know there are a lot of the very wealthy who would like to get rid of it, but you can't do that.
You know, I did mention that the polls are tightening up, but the Republicans and particularly those in the Bush campaign claim that he has a farmlock on about 240 electoral votes
and that all he needs is another 31 electoral votes to win the presidency.
They may seem a little jittery, but they're really basically very confident that he's got this locked up, including Texas, your home state.
Well, I don't think they have any luck at all. And what we're seeing is those folks that are now making up their minds are breaking in our direction.
There's more volatility in these polls at this late stage than I've ever seen in a presidential election, and I think this reaction against the negative campaigning is really helping us.
But isn't it true that the volatility is in the northern industrial states and that the south and Texas and the Rocky Mountain West are still sticking pretty solidly to George Bush without much movement?
Then why do you think that they have rushed in half a million dollars of Bush quail advertising in Texas in the last few days?
Why do you think?
And then another half a million from the Republican committee and then sending Ronald Reagan down. That's because they know they don't have Texas locked up.
Here's what I heard. Here's what I heard. I heard that the Republican campaign in Texas are telling people to vote for Lloyd Benson for the Senate Finance Committee, send you back to the Senate, and vote for George Bush for vice president.
That that is part of their campaign. And one of the reasons they're doing it is so that when and if you come back to the Senate, you won't have resentments toward George Bush.
Have you heard that?
Oh, I've heard that story. They're using every angle they can think of.
Well, it's kind of wooing you, isn't it?
No.
Well?
No, certainly not, because I signed on to be vice president of the United States where I thought I could make a difference and be a trusted advisor to a president. And I'm working very hard to do that.
Well, you know.
I think we're going to pull it out and Mike Dukakis is going to win it.
They say in their campaign, in the Bush campaign, that everybody has been very, very careful never to say anything negative about you. And they've steered deliberately clear of it.
And that's been true. There really hasn't been any talk about you.
And the more dangerous America and the disastrous economy are all aimed at Michael Dukakis.
Well, one of the points you see is that I'm very fortunate in my home state to have good ratings and they don't gain anything by attacking me under those situations.
And so they've concentrated on Mike Dukakis and they've done things like saying he's going to confiscate everybody's guns and taking that to Willie Horton case and making it as though it's a national issue.
And those things, they have brought the level of the campaign to something this country does not deserve.
We ought to be talking about the major issues like the deficit in that budget and what's happened to its own trade.
We ought to be standing up for American jobs and pushing our products abroad.
Senator Lloyd Benson, thank you very, very much for being our guest. And as I said to Mrs. Bush, fight on for the next two days.
It's a great horse race. Thanks.
Thank you.
We'll be right back with the final word.
I'm Jerry, Texas Democratic on November the 8th.
I'm Leslie Stahl. Don't forget to vote.