With the recent death of my mother and niece in a tragic car accident, with the opportunity
to potentially connect with either one, was one I could not refuse.
My father called me and said, Judy, come down, go to the beach with us.
This is my last time.
I'm getting old.
I'm going to die.
I said, I'm going to die soon.
He said, Dad, I can't do it.
I'll see you in September.
This is July.
My father went to the beach, came home that night, and he died.
My mother, I had planned to go spend two months with, and I kept putting it off.
And she died.
I talk with them about the person that they have lost, that they want to see again, and
we go over their memories of this person and the details of the relationship and so on.
And after that, I lead them into a room where there is a mirror mounted on the wall surrounded
by a velvet curtain, hopefully so as to exclude a lot of light and reflections.
And they sit in that booth in a comfortable chair, gazing into the mirror.
People say that the first thing they tend to see are clouds and mists, and then the
actual images will begin.
He's been in there for an hour and a half now, and so we can go in and see how he's
doing.
Mostly interested in how he's feeling right now.
I had to close my eyes, and then I'd open it up.
And around it, I'd open it up, and then I would see something.
I kept seeing like a, probably it could have been a face, but it was being revealed by
something like either a door, either a door was opening it, revealing it, or a page was
turning it, but there was something solid that it would reveal a face.
But then I had this feeling of just someone kneeling beside me.
They didn't touch me, I just kind of felt there was someone there.
Like a feeling of presence.
Yeah.
I kind of saw maybe my father, but I saw my dog too.
You saw maybe your father.
You mean?
Well, I mean, I just felt that I was focusing so much on that, that if I saw anybody and
there was something behind that out of focus vision, that would be my father.
I can't imagine it being anybody else.
I had a very interesting kind of experience.
It was like I wasn't in that room anymore, and I could hear my mother talking, but I
could never remember, because then something would happen, I would come back, and then
I would be back in the room, and I couldn't remember what was said to me.
I was being told something, but I don't remember what was.
I'm sure it was my mother because I recognize her voice.
Well now, after our cameras left, Judith went back into Dr. Moody's special room and had
a wild experience.
We'll hear about that next.
We'll be right back.
7.30 tonight.
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My guest today, Dr. Raymond Moody claims that the living can actually make contact with
the dead.
Jim Canning and Dr. Judith Gauthme went through his workshop where they went into a special
booth called a psychomantium to try and get in touch with the deceased loved one.
What exactly is a psychomantium?
Well Oprah and in ancient Greece there were institutions called psychomantiums where people
would travel and allegedly see the spirits of the deceased.
The most famous of these was in the northwestern corner of Greece and it was mentioned by the
ancient Greek historians and geographers and also in Homer.
And I read about this and scholars have always assumed that that was either fraudulent or
else that Homer and others were making these stories up as literary creations.
So what I decided to do was to see if I could replicate this and I built one of these places
and much to my surprise it does work just as the ancient Greek said.
What it is, basically a room or a box, an enclosed space where you block out all light.
That's right.
It's a place where you can go and gaze into the clear depth of a mirror and after certain
sorts of preparations people see visions which purport to be visions of people on the other
side.
I have many, many, many, many questions about this.
Me too by the way.
Many, many, many.
First of all if you believe in life after life and you believe that we incarnated into,
we come from the spirit of a greater source, call that source God, we come as human beings
into the flesh on the planet Earth right now, who is to say that when you leave and you
leave the flesh, if you are a spirit, and I, you know, that's one of my beliefs that
that's what you are really, a spirit inside some flesh and bones, who is to say that you
need a body and that when you appear again you even should be recognized?
Right.
Well that's one of the many, many difficulties with this and...
Because when you go on maybe you don't need your body.
See I see bodies as just like outfits.
So there's some black outfits, some Asian outfits, some white outfits.
Exactly.
So...
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a way of kind of describing and defining yourself in the body.
So when you go on you don't need a body.
So who knows who's who.
Right.
Well just as a preface to this Oprah, what I would say is that I think we have to be
very careful to realize that this is not something that I'm presenting as like scientific evidence
that we live after we die.
But the scientific advantage of this is that for the first time now we can reproduce under
controlled circumstances of observation and experience which when it occurs spontaneously
as it does to so many people...
Who say they see their deceased loved ones.
That, that...
But isn't a lot of that because they want to see their deceased loved ones and because
Judith lost her mother and had said I'll come and spend some time with you and didn't.
So a part of that is the grieving of wanting so badly to see it and so your mind can create
that for you.
Grief can never be separated from this kind of work.
But what we have found out about it is that much to my surprise, number one, the people
who go through this do experience this as real.
In other words no matter, even though you might be very critical going in there once
this happens, it really presents itself as a real experience.
Were you very critical going in?
I was suspicious, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean especially when I walk into the room and there's this black curtain and a chair
on the floor and a mirror.
But you stayed in there an hour and a half and when I heard that, first of all, I have
to tell you if I'm in the dark room, our producer Ellen who went down there with Dr. Moody said
she was in there for 20 minutes, it got a little dark and she left.
So Ellen says she don't want to talk to nobody.
And I would feel when I heard what you experienced, I would think and you said on tape that you
felt the presence of something, you didn't know if it was your father or not but you
believed or wanted to believe that it was your father.
When you feel that, this is the fear that I would have Dr. Moody, that when you're dealing
with the other spirit world, there's no telling what spirit you can bring back and who's to
say it was his father.
Preparation is really important with this and we go through this with people and we
really explore with them their motivation for why they want to do this and so on.
And a large part of it really has turned out to be that people who go through this feel
a certain healing of the relationship with the person who's died and that's the most
important aspect of it.
I just wanted to say, did what you experienced, what Dr. Moody just said, what you experienced,
you felt that to be real?
Yes.
That you know that you weren't dreaming, you didn't imagine it, you didn't think it up?
Well, I just remember sitting in that chair and then I just all of a sudden felt like
there was something next to me and I even heard, you know, like, I know it sounds very
strange of course it does, but I heard like kind of clothing bending or something that
was inside.
I looked next to me and there's nothing there of course.
But I mean, whatever happened, happened.
We asked an artist to sketch what Jim and Judy saw while in that psychomantium, which
is a special booth or chamber, as the doctor has just explained, built for communicating
with deceased.
And that's, is that essentially what you felt you saw?
Is that the artist's rendering?
It's a lot tighter than that.
That's probably fairly accurate.
But it was very quick, it wasn't like I sat there and stared out, you know, at this mirror
and I saw this door slowly open and there's a face down and talking to me.
It was just, it could have, you know, it just felt like a millisecond.
Judith, you said you heard the voice and you knew the voice was your mother's?
Is that what I heard you say?
Yes.
Yes.
And had you believed that you could do this prior to going to Dr. Moody?
No, I'm basically a skeptic as well, but you know, to be offered the opportunity to contact
a deceased one, I don't think anyone could turn down that opportunity.
And so you did it because you wanted to?
Well, as a scientist, I was curious and also secondly, because of the opportunity, if indeed
it worked, it would be great.
If not, I would not be disappointed.
What happened when we left?
Oh, the second time I went into the room.
I went into the room the second time simply because I didn't think I had given it a fair
shot the first time because I was very aware of the noises around me and sounds.
The second time I actually put in ear plugs to filter out the sound.
What I basically saw was the room, as they said, is very dark, but yet the room, like
Ellen said, could get darker.
And that actually scared me because it looks like outside people were walking around in
the room, shadows.
So I actually got out of it.
I didn't tell you this, but I got out of it, looked around, sat back down and looked.
And then suddenly a lot of faces just appeared that I did not recognize.
I recognized one was my mother, but it was so many faces that I didn't see.
How do they appear?
They just kind of like, is it like in the movie Ghosts?
It's kind of, ooooh.
No, no, it was.
No, really, I'm not saying that to be funny.
I mean, does the face just kind of phase in and phase out?
How does it appear?
No, they were just faces.
You know, they were kind of blue.
In the room or in your mind?
No, in the mirror.
I could actually see them, just like faces appearing.
And that didn't scare you?
Yes, it did.
Okay.
And actually at that point, of course I was concerned I was ready to come out of the room.
But I knew I had time and I had to sit because you would come and get me.
So I just kind of sat there and said, I don't believe this.
Okay, we'll finish with this, with what you have to say in a moment.
When we come back, she lives in a beautiful suburban home, has been married to the same
man for 30 years, works as a chaplain, but don't judge her by appearances only.
Next we'll find out what would shock her friends if they only knew they're going to be shocked
when they see this, what went on behind her closed doors.
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Diane Archangel, and that's really her name,
has been married to the same man for three decades,
and she has a busy life as a mother and working as a chaplain.
She says she is as normal as can be, except for one thing.
After reading about Dr. Moody's work on communicating with the deceased,
probably that book Life After Life, right, Diane?
She went to his training seminar, and now, well, take a look for yourself.
I would describe myself a very normal person.
My friends would definitely, the ones who do not know,
would definitely be surprised that I have a psychoantium upstairs.
Yes, it's not the type of thing that I have ever been interested in
as far as anything metaphysical.
I've been a very concrete person.
If it's before my eyes and I can touch it and if I can see it
and if I can hear it, then it's real, and if I can't, no,
I have never wanted any part of anything like that.
So they'd be very surprised.
Come on up and I'll show you the psychoantium.
I had an empty bedroom and didn't really know what to do with it,
so this has kind of solved that problem.
The only thing is the psychoantium, the room where it is,
is right over our bedroom.
Since my husband doesn't like spirits, he teases me about
what is going to happen tonight.
As you can see, I have art all over the room
because there's not really time or space.
This is a place where we just let dreams happen.
There's a light bulb.
A person enters it right through here.
This, there's a chair sitting very, very low.
Then against this wall, there's a mirror.
It's very quiet and very still.
We just let the imagination do what it needs to do.
Other than having a psychoantium,
I'd say my life is just about as normal as anyone else's.
So anybody can have one. Is that true, Dr. Moody?
I would sort of caution people against doing this on their own
unless they've had some sort of instruction
and are there with a person who can support them
if they were to have a very emotional experience.
But within that circumstance, yeah, this is very easy to set up.
I thought it was interesting, Diane, the way you mentioned
my husband doesn't like spirits, so the room is over here.
Like, my husband doesn't like artichokes, so...
Are you not afraid if you are dealing with spirits and so forth
that you might get a bad spirit?
I'm really not afraid of that at all.
I feel very, very comfortable in that what comes is nothing
but light and love and peace and joy.
Uh-huh. And what are you looking for
and why the need to contact people who've already decided
they don't want to be here anymore?
For me, in my work, it's so healing.
It's as if a person loses part of themself
when they lose part of their loved one.
They don't have closure with that relationship.
And when we go in and they do actually see the person
or they hear the person, it's as if they have closure
with that relationship.
Is that what you felt, Judith? Dr. Rothman, in any way,
did you feel a sense of closure with all those faces?
Well, actually, no. It was actually more of an opening.
Most of the faces I didn't recognize.
Did you communicate with your mother at all?
No, because the other faces appeared so rapidly.
I was more puzzled why, and I've been pondering that ever since.
And if you could communicate with your mother,
what is it you want to say to her?
What is it you want to know?
Oh, I would just talk to her actually about my daily life,
my career advice, mostly. It's usually what we've talked about.
Do you believe she already knows what's going on with your career?
Do you think she knows?
Yes, I think she does.
I think she could provide probably now more insight than she could
when she was here, because it was too in-depth to explain.
It's not the kind of thing you tell your mother in detail.
Well, what about this, Dr. Moody? I don't know.
I know everybody's, yeah, wants, has a few things to say.
The fact that you die and you go over to what other side
or whatever you choose to believe about that,
that you're no longer in the human body form,
it's like there's a little pact made,
because if it was supposed to be that we were communicating with the dead,
wouldn't they all be coming back all the time telling us a few things?
Well, you know, what that reminds me of, Oprah,
is that people resist this idea very strongly
because of exactly what you said.
In effect, there is a social contract that the dead have their place
and the living theirs.
So that accounts, I think, for a lot of the strong reactions
people have to this kind of reason.
This woman had a point during one of the commercial breaks.
You said you don't need a psychomantium to communicate with fear.
No. We had a family reunion this weekend,
and my grandfather was 96 and he passed away about a year ago.
And the door to the beach house opened up and everybody just stopped.
And I said, that's granddaddy. Come on in.
You know, and granddaddy came on in and took him a seat
and I could feel his presence, a warm spirit, and everything was smooth.
But you didn't see him.
Yeah, you could see him moving. It's like, it's just like granddaddy.
You know, he had on his overalls, he just walked on in.
But you didn't see overalls.
Yeah, I saw face, I saw granddaddy. It was granddaddy.
You believe she wanted to, you don't believe she saw the overalls.
Because I'm thinking, what do you need overalls for if you're overrun in the spirit?
That's what I'm thinking.
The spirit don't need no overalls.
The way I look at it, the spirit, see, I feel like my grandfather loved me
and other people have passed in my life that love me.
And they come back to let me know that when I'm going through something in my life,
everything's going to be all right.
Okay. Well, okay. I was believing you up to the overalls.
That's where you got me.
Two nights a week, he tries to get in touch with the spirit of his wife.
He was married to for almost 50 years,
but he keeps running into other spirits that aren't his wife's.
But first, as Diane told us, her friends and neighbors don't know about the psychomantium
she's made in her home.
Watch as Diane tells her secret to her neighbor while our cameras were rolling.
Oh, gosh.
Let me tell you, I've got a psychomantium in my house.
A psychomantium. Yeah.
A psychomantium. What may that be?
A psychomantium is a place for reunions for the deceased.
Okay. All right.
And you want me to go look at it?
Well, how do you feel about going up and seeing what you see in there?
Be kind of spooky, I think.
Kind of spooky. Yeah.
Have you ever had part of anything?
A reunion for the deceased.
No, I've never been associated with anything like that.
I've never been associated with anything like that.
Good afternoon again.
Adelaide Police are continuing their hunt for a gunman
after a branch of the Westpac Bank at Marion was held up.
Police say the man armed with a sawed-off.22 rifle
bailed up bank staff before escaping with an undisclosed amount of money
in a Holden Commodore.
We'll have more details as they come to hand.
In other news, two firefighters have lost their lives
fighting a blaze that broke out in a showroom on the Gold Coast early this morning.
The pair apparently became disoriented and boxed in
when their breathing apparatus ran out of air.
Back home, State MP Martin Evans will contest ALP preselection
for the federal seat of Benythin.
He's hoping to replace Dr Neil Blewett, who resigned earlier this week.
Mr Evans is currently the opposition Treasury spokesman.
If successful, Mr Evans says he'll resign from his State seat.
We'll have more on these and other stories,
plus the latest sport and weather first at five.
Troublesome teenagers, what is the problem?
Conflict at home places enormous pressure on the family.
Who's to blame? And what can be done about it?
You and I talk to the experts about taming today's teenagers.
Alan Jones, live, seven o'clock weeknights.
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Be dependent upon a dead person for emotional continuity,
emotional satisfaction, or even to get advice for how to live one's life.
It is, I think, to give up one's integrity for who they are.
Bill Fontaine's family says he's just about the least likely man
to believe in all this reunion with the dead stuff.
But after Bill's beloved wife of 49 years died,
his daughter suggested there might be a way that he could still talk to and see her.
So skeptically, he says he gave it a try and says that what happened next was extraordinary.
I believe that I'm as... about as normal as anyone I know.
I don't smoke and I don't drink.
First of all, I don't use or take drugs.
My wife passed away in July of last year.
We would have been married 50 years.
When you come back along a road, it's hard to let go.
She was a loving person and she cared for her children and grandchildren
and all the people around her very much.
She had a very horrible death.
She had lung cancer.
My family was devastated.
And when they came back to me and said that there was a system whereby you could look in a mirror
and possibly have an apparition, I was skeptical.
I suppose in some ways I was the instigator in all this.
I understand how people would wonder if we were normal.
You know, we go to the grocery store and the movies and we go to church on Sundays.
And when it happened, she was such the pillar of our family that we were all upset.
And that's how it really all began.
I think the house is typical except for unusual thing that we have up in the bedroom.
This room, which was Susan's bedroom, is where we decided to build the mirror-gazing booth or spying room.
I will come up in the evening somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock
and go in the booth and meditate and hope that we will have an apparition
and that we will find out that my wife does appear.
My dad was probably the least likely to believe in this process.
He was very conservative, very military-minded.
And if he believes in it and it's working for him, it will work for anybody.
Is it working for you, Bill?
Yes, it does work for me.
Have you seen your wife, communicated with her?
No, I have not seen my wife, but I have seen other images on three different occasions while in the room in the booth.
Who are those images? Do you know them?
I don't know. They are three-dimensional, vivid faces whose eyes move, who talk.
What do they say?
I can't hear them yet.
You can't hear them?
But their mouths are moving as if they are talking, but I don't hear anything as of yet.
Were the images you saw talking?
No.
They were not talking?
Quite often they do. Much to my surprise, quite a number of these people who go through this do have very vivid verbal communications.
They actually say they hear a voice and sometimes engage in very lengthy interactive communications.
Bill, if somebody had told you five years ago that this could be possible, what would you have said?
I would have a hard time believing it because I didn't know of this or any of the background,
but since having been to Anniston on two different occasions and having read some material on this subject, I am convinced now that it can happen.
Where do you believe your wife is?
Where?
Where?
Well, if there is a heaven, I think she is there.
And so, in heaven in your mind is where? She still is in body form? She is...
I would believe it would be spiritual.
Spirit form. So if she is in spirit form, would you see her as a body?
Is that what you are trying to see her as a body or fill her presence and connect to her in some way?
Because you said on the tape that after 49 years of being married, if ever there is a time where you become one, that's it.
After 49 years of marriage, it's hard for you to let go.
So are you trying to feel her presence? I'm sure you do feel her inside you.
Yes, I do. But what we are really after is some kind of assurance that she is all right.
After her illness, we had trouble communicating with her and we would like to know that she is all right and that she is being taken care of.
At peace.
At peace. Diane, what have you seen?
What I saw was actually not anyone that I knew.
The lady who had gone into the psychomantean before me was coming down the stairs as I was going up into the psychomantean.
As I walked in, I took...of course I was excited to be there.
So I took just a minute and closed my eyes and when I opened, I saw a vision of what I would call a saint.
And she was kind of in this type of position with a baby.
And it didn't make sense to me and I sat there for a minute trying to make some type of sense of it.
And when it didn't, I just closed my eyes. When I opened them, the vision was gone.
When I went downstairs, I saw a lady who had gone up there before me standing in the position of a saint.
And I went over and I said, that's something like I saw.
And she said yes and she explained to me about her baby's death and told me that there was also the baby, exactly what I saw.
And I said, was there a cave? And then I began to explain to her that there was a cave with a, like, a sheet hanging down from them and so forth.
So when I went in, I saw the vision that the person before me had had, not knowing anything about her vision at all.
Well now.
We come back. A psychiatrist tells us why he thinks that erecting a psychomantean in your home is taking it a bit too far.
Back in a moment.
Music
Saturday is a night of mystery on 10.
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, did they die in a shootout in South America or survive and return to the states to live out their natural lives?
It's a night of murder. With Jessica Fletcher.
Welcome to the insoluble Orient, Mrs. Fletcher.
In the city of Taipans, on Murder, she Wrote.
And it's a night of drama on Casualty.
Your friend says that you gave her the drugs and that you get them from here.
When all fingers point to Jimmy.
Please tell them I didn't give you the drugs.
An absorbing night of television, Saturday.
What do you think of this? Do you like my style?
It's a classic.
Yes, I can live with that for a very long, long while.
What are you thinking? What do you say?
Beautiful timber in so many ways.
It's a classic.
A classic for my home.
Classic timber.
A classic for my home.
The best news you'll find here could be after you read it.
The news on communicating with the dead might detract from a very important issue, which is bereavement.
How people are affected by the loss of a loved one.
Where typically there's after an initial period of shock, disbelief, maybe a kind of an emotional numbness.
After that there's a difficult, painful, but necessary period of grieving.
And letting go.
And letting go.
That's part of the process of letting go, yes.
Now as part of that process, it can be perfectly normal to have sensory experiences that come from within the person, not from external reality, about experiencing the presence of the lost loved one.
Seeing them, hearing their voice, having a sense of their presence, a sense of communicating with them.
What is that? You seeing them or is that your imagination? You created that.
It's a sensory experience that comes from within the person, but an important part of that grieving process.
Not in that setting at all abnormal.
So the important thing really is how you cope with the loss.
How do you deal with the loss of someone who's been so important to you where it feels like there's been something ripped out of your life.
What if it's been a long time though? Say your loved one, your deceased loved one has been dead for ten years.
You've dealt with the death, but you just want to see how things are over there on the other side.
I think that becomes kind of a different issue.
If you don't go through a normal mourning process, if you don't come to some resolution of it, even though there may be a sense in which you always have some sense of life,
even though you always have some sense of loss, if you don't get on with your life, if you can't form other relationships, then that's what Bill,
what you're specifically talking about Bill or are you not? You have him in mind?
I don't know if I can comment on him particularly, but the key thing is can a person get on with their life? Can they form other relationships?
Have you been able to do that Bill?
I'm normal in my, in my day, in my activity.
The question is, I think the question that Dr. Glass is raising here is whether or not your desire to communicate with your wife who's passed on,
who you still grieve and love, whether or not that's holding you back from truly letting go and letting the fact that she is dead, accepting that fact,
or are you still trying so hard to communicate with her that you haven't even dealt with the grief? I think that's part of the point here.
I'm past that point of grieving and I'm in a position now where I would like to have some apparition or some knowledge that she's all right and is at peace,
but I am, although I grieved heavily, I am now able to cope with the reality.
And I want to say too, Oprah, that I agree with Dr. Glass entirely on that issue that in my opinion science is not the kind of mode you would go about to prove there's a life after death,
but from our experience with this we are hopeful, I'm sure Diane and a number of others around the country who are doing this,
that potentially this could be made into a therapeutic modality off in the future for helping people with precisely this issue.
Because you're saying you're not trying to scientifically prove it.
I don't believe that science is capable of proving or disproving that there's a life after death.
What I think the scientific value of this is, is that for the first time now we will be able to reproduce under controlled circumstances of observation
an experience which has always been thought of as paranormal and this opens the possibility of monitoring people with various sorts of gadgets and equipment who are going through this experience.
Well you know many people say that Dr. Moody has lost his mind, but coming up next we're going to meet the former television host who is getting married to the unconventional doctor in just three days.
We'll be back in a moment.
Music
More than vivid fantasies, I mean there's 50 years of good research in the laboratory explaining how the brain generates these things,
how suggestion, how desire or how will to believe can generate things that seem extremely real to people.
I mean in our laboratory we bring people in and do similar kinds of exercises with them and some of them see, well one of my favorites was a troop of squirrels marching along wearing army helmets singing in unison.
It seemed incredibly real to them.
Not for a moment did anybody think that those were anything more than a very vivid image coming out of their own minds.
So I think what the psychomantium does is presents the physical and the psychological background that elicits these kinds of things and it selects people who want to experience them and puts it all together into a very vivid fantasy.
Do you doubt that what they say they felt was real was real? Do you doubt that?
I don't doubt that it felt extremely real to them. I doubt very much that it was real.
We know that the brain can generate these things. We know that people under neurosurgery for instance can have their brain stimulated electrically and produce incredibly real things.
In fact people five, six, seven times a night produce incredibly vivid imagery we call dreams that they think are real too.
I mean your brain can generate a reality for you as an image or it can take information from outside and call it real or it can mix the two together and that's what we do all the time.
I think the very least what the psychomantium did for me, my father's been dead for about ten years and we don't get a lot of opportunities to sit and really think about what they meant to us and our experiences.
So for me it was an hour and a half of actually concentrating on my father's life and if that's the least it did for me that's great. That was fine for me.
Dr. Gwathmey?
I kind of have the same sentiment as Jim. What are we really talking about here?
As a scientist I cannot say that they saw spirits or I saw spirits but you can say...
You saw faces, you said you did.
Yes, we saw faces, you saw imagery but the real point is does this help in any way in healing even if you generate it yourself?
The point is everybody walks away calmer, happier, healthier and loving and actually most interesting thing is with no longer a fear of death.
So my question is really scientifically what is the big gnorf about this?
If it helps and it heals and that's what we were talking about and I agree absolutely with everything you said and the bereavement process and that's truthfully why I went.
I have a family, my sister who lost her daughter who still I don't think is grieved and my point was if I could figure out some way to help her heal herself it would be worth it.
Okay, yes, okay, what do you want to say?
The comment I wanted to make, we have talked about the physical and the psychological.
No one has mentioned the spiritual. Now the problem you're having here when you go into the spirit realm is you allow demon spirits to come in.
If your daughter, if your sister has a desire to be healed ask her to pray to God to reveal to her in a dream or vision that her daughter is fine.
But see that is just one way. This is, can I say this to you?
Okay, this is the problem that I have is that there are many paths to peace or there are many paths to God and there is not just one way.
There isn't just one way to get there.
You have to be careful when you enter the spirit realm that you open the door for demon spirits to come in and trick you to show you visions, etc.
Okay, and I don't want to go into the Bible, however King Saul figured this out.
You're in the Bible already.
Okay, okay Oprah.
You're in there, you're in there.
I have a lot of points, okay, but there's not enough time to get into all of them. First of all, without any disrespect, I'm sure that somewhere along the line some financial thing is coming home.
Somewhere with a book, with something, okay.
And the thing that I understand is this, is that this is an emotional need first. It's a hurt.
Okay, anytime that happens the mind has to aid the hurt.
Okay, so if you put me in a black room, I'm sure my mind is going to do whatever aches I have to help me.
Okay, and it's, you know, this is pretty cosmic stuff.
I have to be, the nice thing about this whole thing is that when we pass away each and every one of us here individually, we will know the truth.
And some of us, it'll be too late then.
What do you want to say? Yes.
Yes, ma'am.
I was like real pregnant and I was with my father when he had died in the hospital.
And the next day I went into labor, had a cesarean, couldn't go to the funeral, couldn't go to the wake, the whole bit.
So I was, avoided the whole thing.
About two weeks after his death, I was in bed. I woke up. I heard my father saying, short stride, wake up. I woke up. He was standing in my room.
He was at the foot of my- Was he wearing overhauls? No. He was wearing his blue suit.
And at the wake, my family had put certain articles in the casket with my father and he went through a list of those stating, I have this, that.
And the other thing he said, but short stride, I don't have my glasses. That was his nickname for me.
I said, well, daddy, your glasses are in my nightstand.
And he was in human form?
No, well, no. He was in spiritual form, but in the form that I remembered him in.
Okay, the blue- In a blue suit.
So, yeah, how he was waked. And I said, daddy, they're in my nightstand. And he said, I never got to say goodbye to you. I love you. Take care. I know where my glasses are. And he was gone.
But yeah, this gentleman just said, isn't that what you wanted him to say? Isn't that what you wanted?
Because- You say it happens.
It happens. And I'm listening to what you're all saying and I don't think that you need that planetary- whatever that room is.
Psychomantium.
Because I had a near-death experience. When they pronounced me, basically I was dead. I went through the vision and I saw my two grandmothers.
They told me that it wasn't time yet. That was four years ago. My father passed away a year ago. And I have had this for four years.
I- it is- they're in clothing. They're as vivid as people that are right here. It's not something that I make up. I live with it on a daily basis.
Where are they, though? Do they just kind of show up?
My father- it happens with my father- they do show up. I was driving in the car two days ago. And my father was sitting next to me.
And he died the day that I found out that I was pregnant. And he was sitting in the car with me and he wasn't wearing shoes. And I kept saying, Dad, why don't you put some shoes on?
I mean, I was talking to him. And I grieved. I don't have the guilt. I don't believe in Satan. It's not part of my religion.
It happens. And it- it- it- you're- I'm convinced at this point that you're here as a- you are as a spirit. When you go, there is another place in the world.
Somewhere.
I don't believe that you come and you just die. Life is too short for people.
Dr. Moody has a new book on the subject. It's called Reunions, Visionary Encounters with Departed Loved Ones. You're going to marry him?
I am. Sunday.
Okay. And what does your family say about you marrying this guy?
Well, this is incredibly fertile ground for wonderful jokes. You know, we say things like, oh, come on down to rural Alabama and let's raise up Elvis and JFK and all the pop icons.
But it's incredible. All I can do is judge by the people who have been through it. And if nothing else, it's the best spa in the world because people come downstairs and they look 20 years younger almost every time.
It's something like what Dr. Grothman was saying is that what's all the- I forgot the word you used about it. That if you come away and you feel like something has happened to heal you inside, then what's the big deal?
Right.
Yeah.
What's the big deal?
What's the guilt? Diane?
We're in such an information society, intellectualizing about everything. And for me, this is a place where we can go in and touch that sacred spirit inside.
Do you think you could do it though, as she said, without the dark room, the psychomentium?
Yeah.
People who do it. And as she mentioned, in the course of near-death experiences, people have spontaneous apparitions of the departed. And it happens to people in a perfectly good state of health.
What we can do here is to provoke this experience or evoke it, to use the proper term, and bring it about hopefully so that people can learn more about themselves and hopefully so that they can undergo a healing.
Well, have a happy marriage. Thank you very much.