My name is Norman Wright, and I'd like to welcome you to this second tape in our series
on marriage counseling.
It's vital that you have watched the first tape so that you have the actual teaching,
the guidelines, and the principles.
But in some ways, this second tape is more significant because in this one you're going
to see three sessions of actual live counseling.
At the beginning of each session, I'm going to ask you some questions so that you can
be guided as to what to look for.
And then at the conclusion, I'm going to give a summation.
With RJ and Rosie, it was a case in which in the first minute or so, they came out with
the actual problem.
You didn't have to do much digging.
They just laid it out for you.
And some of the things that I'm going to ask you to consider as you watch this tape are
the following.
What was the purpose of my first or my initial questions?
And as you listen to those questions, what was the tone?
What was I trying to get across at that time?
And what way did I move the counseling towards some type of a solution?
Did I do it through questions or did I do it through statements?
Did I in any way put the responsibility for change back onto the councilees?
And if I did, how was that done?
What did you hear as the underlying problem that RJ is expressing?
And as you listened with your eyes as well as your ears, what did your eyes tell you
that Rosie might have been feeling by the non-verbals that she expressed?
As you look at this session, I'd like you to try to determine the different principles
that I taught during the counseling.
Did I teach them as a direct teaching procedure or through the questions or statements that
I made?
Did I push for a commitment for change?
And finally, what do you think were Rosie's feelings during this session?
I guess the most important is my insecurities.
Your own personal insecurities?
Right, about my wife.
Okay, they pertain to Rosie then.
Right, being insecure.
Okay, could you elaborate on that for me a little bit?
Well, I guess jealousy, uncomfortable with her being alone without me, those kind of
things.
How do you display your jealousy?
Well, I'd have to say with bitterness, anger.
Is this something that is there all of the time or are there exceptions?
It seems to be there quite a bit, most of my life.
Most of your married life?
Yes.
Okay.
What have you done?
How have the two of you talked about it before to bring some resolution to it?
We've gone to marriage counseling and basically it's been told of me that my background coming
from an alcoholic father being abused as a child, being institutionalized where I really
didn't have anything to hang on to.
Our last pastor told me that a lot of it had to do with not being able to hold on to anything,
not being able to love my father because he was an alcoholic.
Anytime I wanted affection, he would hit me or do something.
He said that because of anytime I feel insecure, it's because I feel I'm going to lose something
because it's like the first time in my life I really had anything that I feel is mine.
And you live with this fear constantly then?
Yes, sir, I do.
Is there anything that Rosie can do to help alleviate that fear, to help you feel better?
We've talked about it and our pastor has basically, one of the things I try to do is tell her
when I'm insecure and what I'm insecure about.
If it's a dress that I'm not happy with or I feel uncomfortable with, then I tell her.
But sometimes she wears it anyway so then I go through the night kind of insecure and
feeling pretty low about myself.
Rosie, I'm interested in hearing your feelings about this and your perspective.
Well to me it is a real, real big problem because it's like I have to deal with it with
him every day, every day of our married life.
We've gone through this and I think a lot of it does have to do with his childhood but
I think a lot of it too is, I don't think he was really, he wasn't really ready to settle
down I think when we got together.
So he did a lot of things in the beginning of the marriage that would have made me insecure.
But I've been faithful to him.
We've been together 19 years now and I've been faithful to him.
We have five children and to me it's like there's nothing I can, I can't understand
why there's nothing I can do.
What more does he need for me to prove to him that I am faithful to him?
He's the only man in my life and it's frustrating to me that I have to prove to him daily, daily
that I'm faithful to him.
And it's degrading to me some of the things he says to me when he's insecure.
He takes it out in anger or he'll say things that put me down which aren't true, he knows
they're not true and he'll apologize after the fact but it's real hurting to me and it
cuts deep because the things are not true.
And a lot of times I just become, over the years I become defensive and I just want to
shut him out because I can't deal with it anymore and I don't really know what the answer
is.
I don't know how to make him secure.
I know who I am as a person.
I know that I'm a faithful wife.
I try to be a good mother.
I take care of our home.
And when we go somewhere I'm so aware of how he feels that I'm constantly watching everything
I do but to him he sees everything opposite.
He sees things almost like through a clouded mirror, like everything I do is for another
purpose and it's a real big problem in our marriage.
I'd like you to stop the tape at this point and reflect on what you would say to Rosie.
Take a moment and write down what you would say and then take another couple of minutes
and reflect on where do you want the rest of this session to go?
What might you say?
How are you going to lead them?
R.J., do you think the solution lies in anything that Rosie can do or more within you?
Obviously, it's probably within myself.
I get to the point where I get frustrated.
I just ask the Lord to take me home because I realize that it's a thorn in her side and
in mine too.
As I shared with our pastor, it's not something that I brag about.
I feel uncomfortable talking about it.
But again, there's probably others that are like ourselves that could have the same problem.
As much as I didn't want to bring it up, I think it's important because I love my wife
and she knows that.
Again, I get to the point where I just say, God, take me home.
I can't deal with it.
I've tried and sometimes I don't get the credit for even trying.
It gets frustrating to me as well.
I think it lies within myself, yes.
You mentioned that you don't even get credit for the times you tried.
There are times where maybe there's a little greater control?
Very little, but yes.
There are times where...
Would that be noticeable to Rosie?
Yes, I think so.
Okay.
Would it be safe to say that maybe there's a couple days where you might not mention
anything?
That you don't bring up anything?
I have to say, yes, there's been a time where I've just tried to shut it out.
Recently we've had an ordeal and again, I try to...
I realize that as she said, that she's growing thin on the situation.
So I have to be real careful because I want my marriage.
After 19 years, it's like my life, half our lives together.
So it's important to me to try and I do give it effort.
Today I find myself trying to be more careful in saying the things that might hurt her or
try not to think and allow myself to get my mind to thinking insecurities, but I do try,
yes.
Okay, so it is possible and there are some exceptions.
So we know that there's a little ray of hope there.
You mentioned something just a minute ago that's really, really significant.
You try not to get your mind going.
Do you spend time thinking about different situations or scenarios or concerns and does
that tend to develop the insecurity even more?
Well, it's not really thinking.
It's pretty natural.
It just comes automatic.
It pops into your mind?
Well, today when we're at a market or wherever we're at, you always see guys are disrespectful
today and to me, I guess it's part of my culture.
Looking at my wife in a very vulgar manner, they're not looking at it as an attractive
woman.
They look at it and it bothers me.
A lot of times I'll look at them, what man?
What are you looking at?
I can't contain myself, but again, those are the things that really bother me the most
is how someone observes my wife, not really looking at her.
I kind of go out of my way to look to see who's looking or what they're looking and
how they're looking.
So when you go into a shopping area, you're scanning it, almost expecting this to occur.
And anybody could just sort of glance at Rosie, but with the filter that's operating, you
interpret that as, aha, they're scheming on her.
They're thinking thoughts that they shouldn't.
Well, not really.
It's pretty blatant what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I mean, it's obvious people, they see some movement to the side and they look over
to see who it is.
What I'm talking about is just, I guess it affects my ego.
They're not respecting me for being my wife.
It's like he's not even there.
So I look at it in that degree.
A personal affront to you.
I feel it is.
That's what it feels like.
So actually a lot of this is what other people are doing and it's not anything that Rosie
is doing.
But would you direct your upsetness or anger toward her rather than somebody else?
Whichever I feel comfortable with.
Again, I've looked at guys and said, well, what are you looking at?
Or giving them the look.
And then I've told her too, hey, this guy over here is looking at you.
How does that affect you, Rosie?
Well, a lot of the times I'm not even aware of the people that he's seeing and then he'll
give me the whole song and dance.
And to him, I'm doing something wrong too.
Or I'm putting myself in a position to be seen.
To him it's like I'm constantly playing a part of it too.
And a lot of times I'm not even aware of what he's talking about.
And so to me it's like, oh, here we go again.
It's almost like I have to watch everything I do.
It's hard to live a life like that.
It's like you're walking around on eggshells.
You really can't be you.
You can't have the freedom to be you.
RJ, I'm just wondering if you could come up with any suggestions, first of all, of ways
that you could begin to back this off.
I don't think this is anything that's going to stop overnight.
It's going to be a gradual type of backing off and gaining control over it.
Do you have any thoughts of what you might be able to do?
Well, to help ease some of my stress, I've asked my wife.
Certain things I've asked her not to wear because they are revealing or to me inappropriate
for the status quo Christian woman.
So I'll be honest with her.
I'll say, that's kind of revealing.
It's kind of tight.
Just to help the situation because again, in the world we live in today, I mean, lust
and disrespect are pretty evident in this world.
So again, I will be very open with her.
Even my kids will tell her.
So it's not just a one-sided thing where it's all just pure bad judgment on my part.
Again, I make it a communication.
I let my wife know what I feel.
Now let's assume that Rosie is doing everything that you've asked her to do.
She's not dressing inappropriately from your perspective, but you're still out and we
can't control what the world is going to say and how they respond and what other men do.
What do you do then?
It really doesn't happen that much.
Again, I don't know what I can do.
I work on it daily.
When I feel that it's going to arouse a wrong feeling or whatever, I mention it.
So it's like I've already pre-warned my wife.
I've said today, this is, hey, I'll tell you right now.
This is a rough day for you.
Right.
I'll explain it to her.
She's asked me, tell me, talk to me.
Let me know what you feel so I can help you.
I do and it's still...
But almost every day he'll say, everywhere we go, I'm pre-warned.
Don't put a show on here.
There's guys over there.
So as soon as we walk in, I want you looking over there.
There's guys pulling up next to us.
Don't turn your head.
It's something everywhere.
Like you said, he's scanning everything out constantly all the time.
I know it's rough for him if he feels that pressure all around him because he makes it
obvious to me.
Then I'm under the pressure where I've got to watch everything I do.
You're really constrained then because of this.
RJ, I wonder if it'd be possible for you to begin to take a day at a time and go through
that entire day without any mention to Rosie, regardless of what you might be experiencing
or feeling, but to begin to accumulate different days where you realize that it is possible
for me not to say anything and it's possible for Rosie not to hear anything.
Is that a reality?
Did that happen?
Yes.
I did that just recently and I wrote it down, what I was feeling.
I didn't tell her, but I wrote it down.
Because again, I try... Probably from the conversation you can sense that she doesn't
feel there's anything wrong on her part.
It's like she's saying it's a daily thing and that's an overkill.
Well, to me, it's offensive when she says that because it's like I'm trying to be open
with her and let her know whether or not... Again, there's a lot of Christian men that... I
see other men react the same way I do with my wife.
I see them react the same way.
All of a sudden, I look over and the wife might be doing something, the husband will
go... Something like my own reaction.
I believe it's a two-way street.
Today women, the clothes that they make today are very revealing, are tight.
There's a lot of things that cause this.
I admit that the reaction that I have is intimidating to my wife.
I look forward to the time where I can just ignore it and look the other way and not let
it bother me.
That time when I wrote it, like I was telling you, I wrote it down.
It was like I was proud of myself.
I really felt good that I didn't say anything.
When I wrote it down, what I was going to do was accumulate it.
I was going to see how long I went and show her, well, these are the things that bothered
me that day.
I threw the list away, but it did help.
I think you've come up with a good idea on your own, so you've got some ability to do
that.
Could I offer a suggestion though?
Yes.
I'd like to see you begin committing yourself to a day where, okay, every time something
comes up, I'm going to write it down, and you do that all day, but you don't show it
to Rosie.
You write it down, and then you take it before the Lord in prayer, and you commit it to Him
and thank Him that He's helped you get through this one day.
Once you get through an entire day by doing that, not sharing with her, you know you've
got a track record of at least one day, which means you know you can pull off another day.
It's going to be gradual in this way.
It's almost like I'm hearing some obsessive types of thinking or behavior that has been
nurtured, has been reinforced over the years, and it's true there are some root causes here,
but you've taken it and really refined it, and now it's turned around and it's controlling
you and affecting your marriage.
You just said something that brought another key element that hopefully you'll be able
to help us with, is that my dad was very jealous.
In fact, probably worse than I, he physically abused my mother, and I knew for a fact that
she was home with us, but it's been mentioned that there's a spirit that can go through
generations, like the spirit of jealousy for example, because my dad, I try to study where
am I getting these habits, what is causing it.
Is it the abuse, is it the fact that my dad was an obsessive jealous man.
My mom left my dad when I was 11 for threatening to kill her because he thought that she was
missing around on him, and again she was a saint from what we knew of.
So again, is that something that could be an element?
You had a model there.
You had that pattern in front of you, and whether we liked it or not, we saw it, and
then with everything else that's occurred in your life, it just sort of became part
of your pattern.
But it's interesting, you brought up something.
Your dad was really jealous, and he was probably afraid that his wife would leave him for somebody
else, right?
And yet by his intense jealousy, he actually brought about the very thing that he feared
the most.
I struggle with that too.
It's almost like I want to bring a crop in on what he's confessed all these years so
he'll be satisfied.
Not that I really in my heart want that, or not that it would solve anything, but it's
like okay, you've said things against me that you know aren't true, and you've put me down
and stuff for so long that you almost deserve a manifestation on what you've said.
Not that I'm not that type of person, and that's his worst fear.
But it's almost as if his worst fear could come upon him if he doesn't quit this.
I have seen this happen time and time again where the person gets so fed up, whether it's
a husband or a wife, that they just give in and say okay, you're not going to believe
anything that I say anyway, so I might as well go ahead and do this, and then you'll
be satisfied and the marriage can be over.
And I know that's not what you want, but when we live with fear, fear turns so many events
in life into self-fulfilling prophecies.
And it's like we're reaching out to drag the person to us, but what we're doing is pushing
them out the door.
And that's not what you want.
Could you come up with some other good ideas of how to take control of this?
You've come up with one already.
Well, I was hoping you could help me.
I've got some ideas too.
Really again, it's just I was an alcoholic, so I've told my wife the things that are
material are easy for me, not easy, but have become something that I've been able to overcome.
Drugs, alcohol, something that I can either pick up and drink or pick up and smoke, whatever.
I've gone that far to be able to handle things, but these things are emotional.
I've just had to struggle with and struggle with and struggle with.
Again, I find myself trying to come up with solutions.
Pastors, I've talked to our last pastor probably I had more communications with about my problem
than any other pastor because again, I wanted to come up with a solution that was a long-term
working thing where it wasn't just confess your faults and try to work it out and let
it go because it's a sincere desire in my heart and as God is my witness, it's something
that I realize can affect my marriage.
You know what it's sounding like?
It's another form of addictive type of behavior.
It's just manifesting itself here.
It's not quite as tangible as the other items.
Have you ever been through any kind of a Christian support group, a 12-step program?
The one we attempted to, we were going to from our church, wasn't that what that was?
It was more of a teaching seminar.
A cleansing seminar, I recall.
I really think that a group like say Overcomers or any type of the Christian-oriented groups
where they really work with you on any kind of obsessive or addictive behavior through
the 12-step program and really relate it to the Word of God, I think that would really
assist you in this process because this is something like the other issues in your life
that can be overcome.
It's possible, but it's going to take a lot of commitment and effort on your part.
I've got several suggestions that I'd like to give.
One would be first just to reinforce what we've talked about before where you take
charge of it by writing it down, but it's not to be shared with Rosie.
Now, maybe there are going to be times where you just feel like, oh, I've got to let her
know what I'm struggling with, or maybe I need to let her know that there's been a couple
days where I struggled but I didn't say anything.
Could that be something that's going to occur?
It's hard to say.
The last two days that I tried this, not the last two days recently, but the two days that
I did do this, it was like I was looking forward to sharing with her to let her know that I
did try and these are the things that I felt like saying but I didn't.
I contained myself because I really wanted to, I still want to be the kind of person
that does not have to be insecure.
Again, I want to be not the perfect husband, but I want to be the Christian husband, the
head of my home.
I accepted my ministry as a priest in my home, so it's a constant battle for me to try to
be that person of God.
And again, that's my desire, not only for myself but for God first, to be that person
that He wants me to be.
If you looked at my past to my future, all my relatives, I mean, they can see that there's
been a tremendous change in my material living, the way I live, and from being uncivilized
to civilized.
So this would be the ultimate for me and my marriage to be able to say that that was an
accomplishment of my life, probably the biggest one.
So this is really important to you.
Very important.
And I'm sure it's very important to you as well.
It is.
It affects us every day.
Have you ever had a day where you noticed or were aware that nothing was said to you?
Never in a safe environment.
But anything outside our home is not safe, almost.
Okay, but maybe that's where we begin.
Are you familiar with the role of a reinforcer?
I would think so.
Maybe I'm not sure.
Okay.
Whenever we see some family member doing something that we really appreciate, that we really
like, whether it be a spouse or a child, that's the time for them to hear from us, to let
them know that, boy, I really appreciate you doing that.
Now usually it's when they do something positive or something that's observable.
In RJ's case, it's going to be not hearing what you have been hearing.
And so I guess what I'm going to ask you to do, even though you're not responsible for
him changing this, I'd like you to act as a positive reinforcer.
And at the end of any day, whether you're just at home or whether you've been out somewhere
and you haven't heard a thing, no innuendos, no subtle hints, no statements, I want you
to take his hands and look him in the eye and just say, thank you.
I know it's possible.
I know it's difficult for you, but I know it's going to happen and reinforce it.
Let's say you've been out to the shopping mall or out to dinner or someplace and you
get home, nothing was said.
Do the same thing.
He needs that recognition.
And I think maybe both of you might feel better if it could come spontaneously from you rather
than him saying, did you notice?
So I think that's your biggest concern.
I'd rather you put forth your energy there rather than thinking, okay, how can I walk
a straight and narrow line here?
How can I not turn my head?
That's unhealthy.
It's restrictive.
I deny your individuality in the way in which God created you just to be who you are.
And I know you don't want that to happen to your wife.
So she's going to be a reinforcer.
But now you're going to take charge of dealing with it yourself.
Let's assume something happens.
You're out and somebody is really blatant in checking her out and looking at her.
And boy, you really feel the feelings.
What are you going to do?
Well, if it's not physical, probably just try to just keep myself from like, okay, fine.
I'm going to just control myself and just let it go.
Again, I can't honestly say what I do, but I will try to probably contain myself.
But again, my reactions are, I'm from the streets.
So it's like, I'm not afraid to fight.
I don't care.
And I've done that.
So again, if it's not something that's physical where there's touching, then I probably will
just try to contain myself.
But I realize that it's a challenge.
But again, I realize it's more important to contain myself.
So give it effort.
Let me give you some suggestions that might help you contain yourself at that time.
If I could first of all ask you more of a personal question, are there times where when
you're out, you find yourself drawn to looking at other women?
Or do you ever struggle with that yourself?
Does that come into play?
All the time.
Okay.
Do you have a handle on that?
Do you keep yourself from getting involved in lusting?
Yes.
I try.
But yeah, it could be a problem, sure.
Would that in any way, your tendency to do that, inflame your thoughts about other people
and how they're looking at Rosie?
It could, yes.
So that might add to that.
What do you do in a very practical way to keep yourself pure?
Pure in what sense?
In your thoughts?
In my thoughts?
I try to say to myself what comes around goes around.
I'm looking at someone's wife or someone's looking at mine.
I try to convince myself it's not right and to think that I just believe that what comes
around goes around.
If I'm out doing something wrong or looking at other women, then someone's looking at
my wife.
So I try to play the same role that I would want someone to play with my wife.
Okay.
Before you go out, have you ever just prayed and committed the time to the Lord and asked
Him to keep your thoughts pure?
Come think of it, no, I don't think I have.
Could we begin doing that?
Sure, that's a good idea.
Okay.
I think that would be a beginning.
Secondly, when you're out there and you think that somebody is looking at Rosie or they
definitely are, have you ever prayed for that person?
Not really.
My thoughts are not about praying for them.
I understand most of ours wouldn't.
There are other thoughts.
I'm wondering what would happen.
It's like you have tried all this.
You know what the result is going to be.
What I want to do is suggest some things that are different because these things haven't
been tried.
I don't think we have that much to lose.
So if you were to pray for that other person's salvation, that might be a beginning.
Secondly, I hear a power struggle going on.
Maybe in your heart and your mind you're looking at this other man saying, hey, you shouldn't
be looking at my wife.
But the reality is, do we have any control over what another person thinks or how they
look toward us or our partner?
I've taken control of that physically, but no, not in reality, no.
But again, with the look back, what are you looking at?
In most cases they just back down and look the other way.
So that to me is control, but not to stop it.
It's going to happen.
So your answer is, no, there's no control.
So we're saying though in our heart and mind, they shouldn't be doing this.
But the reality is, they will.
I wonder what would happen if in our thought life or heart we said, friend or fella, you
can go ahead, think whatever you want to think.
You can look in any way you want to look.
That's okay, because it really doesn't affect the relationship that my wife and I have together.
And I'm just going to pray for your salvation.
That feels good.
Sounds good.
Does it?
Okay.
There's something that happens here that a lot of people aren't aware of, that by you
giving, in a sense, these other people permission, you're taking the power away from them and
it's no longer a power struggle.
You're going with what is occurring, but it doesn't have to have the damage that you've
been letting it have in the relationship.
So maybe these would give you a handle on it.
Let me ask you something else though.
There's a passage of scripture that has really had an impact on many people's lives, especially
when it comes to their thought life.
The passage in Philippians chapter four, verse six through nine, it's a passage that's related
to worry, which says, don't worry about anything, but in everything with prayer and supplication,
with thanksgiving, let your request be known unto God.
Wondering what would happen if you were to sit down one evening and take that passage
and maybe rework it to apply to your struggle with these insecure thoughts, with these jealous
thoughts and perhaps each time you become conscious of the thought, you were to go back
to that passage and to reread it and to ask God to change the direction of your thought
life.
Do you think that is possible?
Oh yeah, of course.
What I appreciate more is applying something to scripture as to my life.
Most of my changes have been because of someone bringing it to my awareness that it becomes
scriptural, like teaching a child the way she'll grow, and he'll never depart from it.
I try to teach my kids to be good Christians, to know God, put God first.
So again, yes, without a shadow of a doubt, anything that's scriptural, I think in anyone's
life, if they pertain it to their area, because of revelation, there's a lot of things that
I've learned that I might have heard many years or months ago, but the revelation of
it, like what you told me today, that might be something that could be a key element in
putting scripture to my problem.
Okay, there's one other passage that I'd like to recommend in 1 Peter 1.13 where it says,
gird up your mind.
The word gird literally means mental exertion.
And what the scripture is teaching us there is that we are to put out of our life anything
that's going to hinder our Christian walk, our growth, and our development.
And I think in this case, it can really be applied because those kind of thoughts are
not drawing you closer together spiritually or emotionally, they're causing more of a
barrier or a distancing between the two of you.
Rosie, I had a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you, if I could.
When this occurs and you feel these statements coming toward you, does it cause you to want
to talk more to R.J. or to distance?
I distance myself.
A lot of times I try to not pacify it, but I feel as though I always have to calm him
down, I always have to reassure him, and then it's come to the point where I almost am resentful
that I have to do it anymore.
It's come to the point where I just don't have the patience for it, I don't really desire
to deal with it anymore, and it's real hurting to me, and I don't feel that he has the right
to continually hurt me in that manner.
I know that he has a problem, but I'm not really sure how to deal with it, so I just
shut him out, let him say whatever he says.
But a lot of times he gets upset that I don't just brush it off, like water off my face
and a half a duck's back.
I can't do that, because a lot of things he says are real cutting and they're not true,
and for some reason they hurt me personally.
I receive them, maybe I shouldn't, but I do, and then I resent him for it, and I put up
this wall, and constantly we're dealing with a wall that goes up and goes down, and goes
up and goes down.
And I have a real concern too, because we have children in the home, and I don't want
this pattern repeated in my children.
I don't think you're alone in feeling hurt, I think anybody in that situation would feel
hurt.
And it sounds like you're distancing yourself emotionally and shutting yourself down, and
that's the dangerous part, because when a partner in a marriage shuts themselves off
emotionally, they're still emotionally vulnerable.
They still have those emotional needs, and unfortunately sometimes that's when somebody
else walks into the picture whether you ever want it, and I know the two of you don't want
that to occur.
You really care for R.J. and have strong feelings for him.
Yes I do.
I'm wondering if you could write him a love letter, just sharing how you feel, what he
means to you.
Give him the letter, from this point on, when you feel the need of reassurance, I'd like
you to go to the letter and read it, so that it will take some pressure off of Rosie, and
you'll be getting what you would have gotten anyway, but this way it's perhaps much healthier.
Does that sound like something that will work?
Sure, yeah.
Of all the things that we've talked about here today, R.J., I'm interested in knowing
which of these you're going to put into practice and when you'll be starting.
Probably writing down, because that's something that I've already basically, it's in my heart
already because I feel that if I have an outlet, if it's put in writing, I at least exercise
that without having to, like you say, get her involved.
I think the other thing would be to pray, because again, our ministry is to pray for
others and for their salvation, so I think that was very important.
It's going to be difficult because at the same time I want to physically take care of
this person to pray for them, and like the Bible says, pray for your enemies, so it doesn't
seem like it'd be that difficult.
It's just something that I have to start doing.
You did it right there a little bit, and that's what I want to key in on.
You said it was difficult, which I understand.
Every time we say, oh, it's going to be so hard, that's going to be difficult, and we
leave that as the last statement.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, but you started to turn it around, and any time
you feel like, boy, this is hard, this is really a struggle, and yet with the Lord's
help this is going to be possible.
That's the last kind of a statement or phrase that I want you to hang on to.
Anything else that you're going to do?
I'd like to spend more time with my wife.
We recently went away for a day.
We have five kids, as we've shared before, so a lot of my time is being hindered.
I'm always complaining about time being spent with her, so that adds to my insecurities.
I realize a pastor told me one time that for every child a part of her has to be shared,
and there's seven of us in the home, so she has to share herself seven different ways,
and that's been difficult, so I'm trying to find and make time so that we can share
and be together more.
What about the Scripture?
Just dwell on it and dwell on it.
Philippians and Peter 1.13, just read it and put it in your mind.
What you might want to do is to write out those passages on a three-by-five card, keep
them with you at all times.
I'll keep them with her letter.
Okay, good idea.
Rosie, could you right now just sort of turn toward R.J. and let him know what effect all
this could have on you?
If he does all these things?
Yes.
It's kind of negative, isn't it?
No, I didn't mean it to be negative, but I want you to know, R.J., that I love you.
I wouldn't be here twenty years down the road if I didn't love you.
I'm willing to do whatever it takes.
I'm willing to work with you.
If you will do these things, I'll continue to stay here because I want it to work, and
I'll appreciate anything, any effort you give it, because I know it's real difficult for
you, and I will receive it.
I'll try real hard to notice everything you do, and just love you for it, and pray that
it works out.
That's quite an offer.
Amen.
One thing I'd like to just mention in closing, as we tie this up, as you embark on this new
direction, if you go two or three days and it's really working, and then you have a day
when you fall back into the old pattern, during that one day I want you to look back and realize
that there were two or three days when it worked.
What was I doing then that made it work?
Go back, rediscover that, and focus more on the little steps forward than the times when
maybe it didn't work.
Even if the next month you've improved 10%, that's what we want to focus on because maybe
the next month there's another 20%, and that's how progress is made.
When each of you is doing what the other would like, then that's the time to reinforce one
another.
Reinforce the positives.
Don't harp on the negatives.
And yes, it is going to be a struggle, but this can be overcome.
I think one thing that is really going to help you even more is to get yourself into
a group where others can support you and you're not carrying the load so much by yourself.
I think that will help.
I appreciate your transparency and your willingness to come and share, and I'm going to be praying
with you for this change in your life.
Thank you.
As I reflected on this counseling session, I'd like to share with you some of my own
thoughts and feelings.
When you work with a couple, it's important to clarify the terminology that they use and
then discover if these issues have really been talked about back in the home setting.
In the first session, even though the past was identified as a major cause for the problem,
I felt I needed to discover how do we change the problem here and now.
I asked about Rosie helping not to make her responsible, but to see how he has actually
communicated the situation with her.
Rosie, I felt, was really becoming weary, tired of this whole thing had been going on
for so long.
And my response to her was basically to summarize her feelings and her weariness.
My question to R.J. was hopefully gentle, but I think necessary to establish who really
does own this problem.
It was him rather than her.
I'd like to also follow up on a statement that he just wants the Lord to take him home
to see if this was a threat or if he really was somewhat suicidal.
Early on in your counseling, look for a way to point out that the couple does have the
ability to change, such as R.J. stating that even when he does try, he doesn't get credit.
Anytime there's credit, that needs to be reinforced.
I tried to point out how R.J. is setting himself up to expect the problem, and he actually
does expect it.
I wanted to use questions to get R.J. involved in both deciding what to do and then commit
himself to follow through.
As I reflected on my tone, I guess one of the characteristics I find that I use is to
try to be tentative as much as possible in both my questions and in my statements.
I wanted to both reinforce R.J.'s ideas and his ability to follow through.
It's essential that we complement the counselee from time to time.
R.J. had some good insight into why he has this problem, but he hasn't yet learned how
to handle it.
I tried to use the example of R.J.'s mother and father to illustrate what could actually
happen.
I've seen so many cases in which the possessiveness or the jealousy of one individual has actually
driven their partner to do the very thing that they fear the most.
And I do think that Rosie was giving R.J. a warning, and I tried to reinforce this with
R.J.
Rosie has insulated herself against the accusations.
The question, could you come up with some other good ideas, is important so that you
can continue to encourage the individual.
As I reflected on the tape, I noticed that I use words like think with R.J. and feel
with Rosie to try to connect with what I would think is their dominant way of responding
to life.
I noticed often that I use the word suggestions rather than saying, now this is what you need
to do.
I tried to make it very simple and very generic.
I tried to classify Rosie's role in this as much for R.J. as for herself.
She is a reinforcer, but she's not responsible for this problem.
I'm trying to affirm her individuality and her freedom, but this too is a message to
R.J.
The directive question to R.J. about his lusting, I think, is at the heart of this issue.
I feel his response indicated that my question was right on the point.
I do ask for commitments, but through the use of questions.
I want R.J. to consider the consequences.
I also want to give him suggestions which will make him feel in control, which is very
important for most men.
I guess I tried to be low key and weave in the use of prayer and scripture, but when
R.J. mentioned how important scripture was, then I wanted to take that further.
As I reflected on the tape, I realized I do spend more time talking with R.J., but he
is basically responsible for this issue.
The love letter was important for Rosie to write to help her reflect upon her feelings
and clarify them, but it was also vital for R.J.
It's important to ask for definite commitments throughout the structure of counseling, such
as I ask R.J. which of these is he willing to do and when.
Tie it down.
Also you want to watch for ways in which they might sabotage their progress and correct
them after a while from using the phrase, boy, that's difficult, because so often it
makes it even more difficult.
I use Rosie to reinforce what he will do, but she also let him know that this is a critical
time in the relationship or she might end up leaving.
She needs others to encourage her, just like R.J. needs a support group as well.
Throughout this, I try to share my belief that they have the ability to change, and
then what is so important is for us to teach them a new criteria for which to measure the
change that will occur.
In this next session, I'd like you to watch a couple who actually came for the purpose
of doing a very brief role play for us, but as so often happens, this role play turned
into a live counseling issue.
It's a classic communication problem in which one person tends to be more of a talker, more
of an amplifier.
The other individual tends to be more of a condenser and does not share their feelings.
And so as you watch the tape, here are some things that I'm going to ask you to focus
on.
First of all, what would you suggest to help any person that you're working with learn
how to share their feelings?
What was it that I did to help Andy see that he does have the ability that he thinks that
he actually lacks?
I'd like you to notice the way in which you can ask a person how they are feeling and
then how that feeling is expressed.
What are the fears that you hear that are immobilizing this couple?
It might help to go back through the tape a second time and identify the various fears
that you hear expressed throughout the session.
How did I actually lead Andy to make a value judgment on what he's doing at the present
time?
How would you characterize my questions, both in content and in tone?
What is it that I'm looking for?
I'd like you to reflect on any additional help that you could give to Andy to help him
with the words that he'd like to share.
What were Linnae's non-verbals saying when I was talking to Andy?
Be sure that you're listening with your eyes.
And in the first session, do you feel that I was pushing Andy too fast?
Why did I use the wording, how does that feel to you, to Linnae?
Is there any way in which I was letting Andy off the hook?
And how typical is this phone issue for some of the couples that you work with in your
counseling?
I'm interested in hearing what brings you here today and what you'd like to see accomplished
by the time we're through.
I'd like for him to be able to communicate to me the way that I communicate to him.
I'm very open and honest with him about every aspect of my life.
Everything that involves me, I feel should be important to him.
I hope it's important to him.
And I'd like for him to feel the same.
I'd like for him to be able to open up with every little minute thing and be able to tell
me about it.
To just be able to communicate and get it out.
He seems to have trouble just telling me, just talking to me.
I guess men just don't want to talk.
Women talk and men don't.
I don't know.
I just wish that you would communicate with me.
I have a difficult time putting out my direct feelings and bringing them out and putting
them into words.
I always have and I don't know what to do to change it.
There's times I try to bring out things that happen when I go to work, but it doesn't seem
necessarily that that's what you want to hear at the time.
And I don't know what you want in that respect.
I'd like you to stop the tape at this time and write down what you would say in response
to their first interchange.
Sounds like both of you are kind of frustrated then.
You'd really like to hear more of what's going on with Andy and yet you're sort of stuck
and not sure what to say.
Yeah, and I have a difficult time bringing to surface or I guess putting into words my
inner feelings.
Are there times, or can you tell me about the times where you have done this?
You have put some feelings into words?
And Lene, listen to you.
There's been a few times where I've been trying to work with myself and trying to come out
and tell her how I'm feeling inside and it does seem to help the communication between
the two of us.
It's just difficult for me to do it all the time.
How frustrated do you become and how do you express that frustration?
I get very angry, withdrawn from him.
It puts a wall between us, creates distance.
I realize that it's me creating the distance and not his silence and yet I don't know how
to change that.
That's something that I need to work on.
I try, however, when he's talking to me to put myself in his place and I feel I try to
be very fair and I try to listen with my heart and not my head.
And it's not always easy.
It's difficult.
Do you become frustrated when there's this lack of communication?
Do you become angry, hurt?
What is it that causes you to create the wall?
I think hurt more than anything else.
I feel it's a form of rejection that he doesn't necessarily care enough to tell me or to talk
to me or to try.
He says it's difficult and yet if I'm worth it, he'll try.
Have you ever told him at that time that, you know, I really feel like I'm being rejected,
I really feel hurt.
I don't want to withdraw from you, Andy, but I guess it's my protection.
Have you ever come right out and said that at that moment?
I've tried.
I've tried.
It's usually not when we're discussing something or something that we disagree.
It's usually when I will, there'll be some space between us and I will come back to him
again and I will try to put my feelings into words and express that to him that I'm frustrated
and that I'm hurt and I feel rejected.
I feel as though I'm not important enough to him and there's still silence.
I'd like you to stop the tape and take a moment and write down what you would say at this
time.
Andy when Lene does that, how does that affect you?
It hurts quite a bit.
I try to go to her and communicate somehow with her.
Many times it's an apology.
I'll come to her and try and rub her neck and kind of a non-verbal apology, I guess.
Could it be that she's looking for a verbal apology?
Yes.
Absolutely.
If you gave her a verbal apology, you'd be really speaking her language more than the
non-verbal then.
I guess I've been afraid of saying something that's going to upset her or hurt her and
sometimes feel like I'm going to risk the chance of telling her things that have happened
and that I may lose her in telling her some of these things.
So I guess in that respect I would keep some of the things that have happened to me or
some of my feelings to myself.
You keep it bottled up then.
Yes.
When you do that, what does that do to the relationship?
It just spreads it farther apart.
So it actually brings about the thing that maybe your fearing would happen?
Yes.
So it really isn't working?
No.
Okay.
Andy, what would it take for you to come to the place where you'd be willing to risk opening
up more and sharing your feelings?
The only thing I can think of is that when we've had a difficult time and she'll just
want to go off and be by herself, maybe take off in the car, go for a drive.
At that point, I'm ready to speak and say anything.
Kind of desperate.
Yes.
Do you always know the words to use to put whatever you're feeling out there for Lene
to hear about?
Not necessarily.
I have always had a difficult time conveying my inner feelings or how I feel.
Most of us as men grow up somewhat emotionally handicapped.
Part of it is because of the physiological differences between men and women.
Part of it is our culture does not really encourage us, train us, or equip us to deal
on the emotional feeling level.
And that's really a tragedy because I think one of the greatest gifts that a husband can
ever give to his wife is the gift of his feelings.
And for many of us, what we've had to do is to actually expand our vocabulary to get a
list of feeling words or to look in a synonym finder and begin to add to this vocabulary
that we have and express it differently.
Maybe even giving some word pictures.
And it can be done because I've worked with hundreds of men who are just right where you
are right now.
We're struggling with this and sometimes it helps to turn to our wife and say, you know,
I've got feelings inside of me.
I'm at a loss as to how to express them to you.
But I want you to know I want to and I'm going to learn how to do this.
And when I do it, could you accept my feelings because it's scary enough to just say it.
And then end up having you not like them.
Do you think that's something that?
I think that's something we could try.
How do you feel about that?
Is that workable?
Even just hearing that he would be making or willing to make the effort, the attempt,
means a lot.
Could you tell Andy that?
That means a lot.
I can try.
I can't guarantee anything, but I will try.
Andy, could you go a step further and share with her how you will try, the steps you will
take to learn how to make this a reality?
I'll try to spend more time communicating directly with you from where I'm coming from,
what I feel.
I may not use the best words or they may not necessarily make complete sense as I say them,
but all I can ask is take them for what they're worth and what they mean.
And all I can do is continue to try and develop and learn additional words to express my feelings,
to let you know really how I do feel about you.
How does that feel to you?
I accept that.
That makes me feel better.
It does make you feel better.
Could I take it one step further, Andy?
I appreciate your willingness to do this and I guess I'd like to refine the word try a
little bit.
And maybe if we could express that I will be doing this, I can't give you a timetable,
but when we say I will be doing this, I guess it's more of a commitment.
I will try to, I'm sorry, I will work on expressing my feelings more to you and letting you know
where I'm coming from and what I feel inside.
I don't know how long it will take or how quickly it will develop, but I will try to
continue to express to you as much as possible and take the time in a day.
In fact, I will every day try to set aside a time to communicate with you and let you
know how I feel or what I'm feeling that day.
I can't always, I don't want you to always think that I'm going to accept or agree with
everything that you say, but don't let that discourage you.
Sometimes we have to disagree.
We're not always going to agree, but just keep working on it.
I will.
The way in which you've expressed yourself right now, Delaunay, really shows that you've
got a lot of capability.
There's one other issue I'd like to go back to that we talked about for a minute.
You were sharing with me that sometimes you get a little concerned because Andy will be
on the phone and will be talking to somebody and you'd like all the details of the conversation.
Would you share your concern again with me on that?
If he's talking with someone that I feel is a part of my life or touches my life in any
way, I'd like to know about it.
I'd like to be involved.
If there's decisions that need to be made or things that regard the children or whatever,
I just would like to know.
I feel I need to know.
It's frustrating when I'll ask him what was said and he'll say, �I don't remember,'
or �I forgot,' or �We didn't talk about that.� It was something that maybe he should
have talked about and he didn't.
I get frustrated.
I get angry.
How would Andy know that there are certain things that he should have talked about if
that wasn't discussed beforehand?
If it wasn't discussed beforehand, I'm usually pretty fair.
I usually give him the benefit of the doubt and I'll think, �Well, maybe he just wasn't
thinking about it or he didn't know.� But if it's something that we talked about just
prior to the phone conversation and he forgets, then I'm furious.
I'm frustrated.
There again, it's a form of rejection.
Obviously other things are more important to you than what we talk about or what we
set as common understanding.
I'm wondering what would happen if you didn't interpret what occurred as a form of rejection
because it sounds like that interpretation is what devastates you and brings on the hurt.
It's almost like assigning something intentional to Andy.
It could be he just didn't remember or it wasn't high on his priorities.
What do you think?
That could be.
I always leave room to be wrong.
I don't like to point the finger at him because I hate when he points the finger at me and
especially when I'm innocent.
I can't handle that.
I write poetry for him and I tell him, I think in a million ways, how I feel.
I try to tell him what he means to me.
It just doesn't seem like the attempt on his part is there.
There's other things that are more important.
It's like it reciprocated.
I can understand that because many women would love to have this occur.
We as men really have to learn this.
Maybe it's not as natural, especially with our background and everything.
If you could give Andy the benefit of a doubt that he's not purposely thinking, now I'm
going to reject her by doing this, that would help and then continue to make requests of
him.
I had a question for you, Andy.
If Lene comes to you and wants to know something right now, right this minute, how does that
affect you?
I feel like I'm put on the spot where I've got to try and find out what this item is
real quick.
Immediately?
Immediately.
Not wait.
What if she were to say, Andy, here's something I'd like you to consider for a couple of minutes
and then let's go ahead and talk about it.
What does that do for you?
It gives me an opportunity to think about it and try to come up with an answer or comments
to what was asked.
Is there a greater likelihood that you'll be able to come up with information that way?
I would say so.
Andy, are you familiar with the terms extrovert and introvert?
Vaguely.
Okay, where the extrovert is the people person and just is gregarious and interacts with
people, is energized by people, where the introvert likes their space.
They can be with people but not to the same extent and they like to think things through
first in their head before they ever come out and share it.
That's a summary of the differences.
How would you label yourself?
I always thought I was the first of the two where...
The extrovert?
I'm able to be out and open with different people.
What happens at home?
I think I change to...
Okay, the reason I'm bringing that up is that sometimes people are what we call socialized
introverts.
They're out there but they're real true nature and where they feel the most secure and safest
is like you are perhaps at home.
I don't know because I haven't been with you that long but I don't know what is really
accurate in your case but it sounds like at home it might be good to approach Andy more
as the introvert and give him a little bit of time to think of some of the answers that
you're looking for.
Then, on the other hand, Andy, since you know that sometimes when you're on the phone that
you might be asked questions afterwards, any way you could jot down some...
I've made a comment of actually recording the conversations and handing you the tape
and letting her play it back at another time.
It just seems when there's a phone call that when I talk to somebody that I kind of paraphrase
it down to the important things, the phone call may have taken five, ten minutes but
it can basically be summarized.
A one line news summary.
Yeah.
Thirty seconds to a minute at most and I almost feel like I'm asked for a word for word, you
know, well you said hello, well what did they say and then back and forth and those things
don't seem that important as to...
Ah, okay, there's the key and this is something that probably 75% of couples in our country
experience what the two of you are experiencing right now.
Even though it's not important to us, one of the ways in which we can demonstrate love
to our wife is to remember that this is significant and important to her and so I'm going to learn
over a period of time to remember these little insignificant details as I call them and make
sure that I share these with Linnae.
Now if that was one of Andy's goals and one of his personal projects, how would you respond
to that?
I love it.
I think that would be wonderful.
I never really knew that you felt that way, that it wasn't really that important because
it seems like you always say to me what you feel I want to hear.
Even though you spoke with someone else and it could be something different, you tell
me what you feel I want to hear and I just basically just want to know how you feel and
what's transpired and then I'm okay with everything.
So you've really made a discovery here in just the last few minutes of what Andy has
said.
Our time is just about up and I appreciate your willingness to bring up these issues
and I'm just going to pray and trust that you'll be able to put these into practice
and give each other the benefit of a doubt and to remember that if what you're doing
now isn't working then there isn't that much risk in trying something new.
Thank you for coming.
As I reflected on this couple, I wanted to share with you once again some of my thoughts
and my feelings and one of the items that I noticed is that I caught myself making a
mistake by saying, are there times when, but fortunately I corrected it to say, can you
tell me the times when you do put your feelings into words?
It sounds subtle, I know, but it's really important that you phrase your questions or your statements
in such a way that it shows that you believe there are times when you are able to do this
and you are coming through.
And thinking back about this young couple, it's such a typical and common adjustment
problem for so many.
I think Andy felt pressured, I think he felt frustrated, he had a desire to do something
but he just didn't know what to do.
I think there's a potential for a classic pursuer-distancer problem in this marriage
where one person keeps after the other individual and the other one begins retreating and the
more they retreat the more the other person pursues and pressures.
Look for the ways that the councilees interpret the behaviors on the part of the other person
and teach them ways to look at them differently.
I think she looked, or I think she felt stuck on what to do with this problem at this time.
She's a very giving person, she wants a close relationship.
I'm not trying to let Andy off the hook in some of what I said but I wanted Lene to understand
the personality differences as well as the male-female differences that exist.
Much of what I taught to this couple is what I teach to most couples, especially in the
premarital counseling because a couple can grasp this in advance.
How much better the relationship begins to flow.
I think it's important to identify how their new responses are going to be received by
their partner and when you do this you're letting the partner know that yes, this is
a different way to respond.
When you work with a person or a couple it's vital that you move them away from this word
I'll try to I will.
I realized I pushed a bit by asking Lene again whether she felt angry or frustrated but then
I added the word hurt which was the word that she really connected with.
And once again with this couple you have them look at the consequences of what they're doing
now that isn't working.
Going back to the personality issues or personality types, I really have discovered over the years
that it's so important that people understand the difference between an extrovert and an
introvert and how to approach their partner.
I use the phrase most of us to indicate that I've been where Andy has been when it comes
to feelings.
This is something that most of us as men have struggled with and when you say we or most
of us they feel as though that you're involved with them which is an important part of the
counseling process.
In this next session with Dennis and Sharon we're going to begin about 10 minutes into
the counseling session.
We're going to see about 10 or 12 minutes of a classic communication portrayal and as
you watch this once again there are several things that I would like you to observe.
As you listen how common are Dennis' concerns for most men?
Is this just him or have you heard this before?
What do you think is the purpose of what I am saying to him?
What am I trying to accomplish?
How did I deal with Dennis' fears?
In what way did I explain the consequences of his concern?
As you listen to me talking to both Dennis and Sharon do you notice anything difference
in the terminology or the usage of words?
What did you hear in my voice?
What is it that I'm trying to convey through my tone of voice?
I'd like you also to look for the reinforcement of feelings and was there any teaching presented
and if so how did I do that?
So in the relationship you would be the one to give a lot more information perhaps and
talk more?
I think at times.
At times.
There are times when I close off scared.
Little frightened?
Yeah.
What frightens you?
That he won't understand.
That he'll just go by it.
It's like maybe I'll open myself a little and then he won't see how sensitive it is
to me or how important it is that he understands and then that will want me to just close off.
Go back into the show.
Right.
Dennis, what's your perspective on the depth of communication and the concern that you
have?
I'd like to hear that.
Well I think as a man that it's not natural for me to open up my deep feelings and thoughts
and though I want to be able to open up it's not something that is easy for me and it's
almost like I try to beat around the bush or I try to go about informing Sharon in other
ways than just coming out and telling her hey I'm afraid of this situation happening
right now, I'm scared or I don't know what to do.
So often I feel that I need to have an answer, be in control as a man and that would indirectly
reassure me that I'm a good husband, a good provider and so forth and when I'm not always
having it together or feeling like things are together then it's difficult for me and
then to come out and express that isn't easy.
To admit that is really kind of scary.
And so you would keep it inside and Sharon would go ahead and wonder do you have any
feelings, what's going on and feel sort of distance.
Yeah and then I think the fear of rejection once I've exposed myself then it's like okay
is she going to be receptive to it or is she going to perceive me as not being able to
handle things or being weak and things of that nature.
Have there been times when you have gained the courage to open up and share?
Yeah, I think as our relationship has progressed we are learning more and more to communicate
and our guard is dropping and we do open up more and more as time goes on.
So there are exceptions and the times that you have opened up, what has happened?
Were you rejected or did she listen to you?
No, I think for me it's almost been something that I've built up like some facade that I
think would come about if I exposed myself to her and when I've opened up and though
she may not always understand me or what I'm saying she still didn't reject me, she was
still there and that in itself was just kind of a relief that I could open up and then
as she observes me and watches how I am she learns to understand me, she's a real good
observer.
So your fear of being rejected is really sort of unfounded because Sharon has not rejected
you.
And even though she doesn't fully understand you're saying that's okay.
Sharon what happens to you?
How do you feel when Dennis does come to the place where he opens up?
I feel good.
Could you turn to Dennis and tell him?
I feel good but I'm still scared.
I'm scared that I don't quite think I'm going to be able to handle it or understand or meet
all your needs or that out of fear I'll go back, close again because I just don't know
how to handle it.
Have you ever said to him, gee I appreciate you telling me about your feelings, I'm not
sure what to do with them at this point.
Have you ever said something like that?
No, no I haven't.
I should say that but…
Would that be an expression though of what you're really feeling?
Yes it would.
I feel too like I should know or if he opens up I should have those right words to stroke
him and say everything's okay but sometimes I don't.
When you do share your feelings what is it that you want to hear from Sharon?
Would you tell her?
Just to reassure me that I'm okay, that you'll still stand by me even in the times when I'm
unsure and to just be there at my side and to not, for you to reassure me that your world
won't fall down when I think that our world, my world is just kind of in disarray.
My lacking won't cause you to just be depleted.
How do you feel about that?
It feels okay, safe.
That's safe for him?
That's something that you can do?
Yes, I can do that.
You're very articulate Dennis.
You might feel as though it's difficult for you to share but the interchange right there
showed that you've really got that capacity.
There's a lot there.
I'm wondering if you're expecting an awful lot a little soon because you haven't been
married yet, even a full year.
One of the things that I share with couples that I work with in premarital counseling
is that it will take them at least five years to learn to be compatible, to learn to speak
one another's language.
Everybody is different, everybody is unique and you're feeling your way and it's when
you begin to risk that you will find that your communication begins to grow.
Do you ever talk like you've just been talking here at home?
There are times when we both know that we don't have to get defensive or put up our
guard.
Probably the times when we approach each other gently and as you said take that risk and
just come to one another.
The other one is really understanding that need of the other usually when things aren't
so busy, things aren't so pressing or stressful.
If we don't have so many things going on that need to be done in the next hour and I guess
timing is a real key factor there.
There are times.
I think before we came up having dinner and times like that when we're not really thinking
about anything else and we have that special time that's a real open door for us to communicate.
The longer we're married I think the risk, you want to take the risk more.
I feel safer.
The longer you're married the easier it's going to become.
Even just you could say a year, not quite a year but it's much different than in the
beginning.
I'm willing to trust more, a little safer and want to try harder.
I wonder what would happen if either of you would say to the other person, you know I'm
willing to run a risk and I need some time with you sometime this evening and maybe use
that as a phrase to get the message across to the other person that I really do want
to communicate and we need time where there's no interference.
Would something like that make it a bit easier to get the message across?
Yeah I think that would be a good approach.
I see many times that because maybe I can be thick headed or she can express herself
to me so many times and whether I'm forgetful or I just pass it by as something that really
wasn't that important to me as it was to her.
Sometimes that approach, it's almost like well gee I tried that before, it's not going
to work again.
Sometimes I feel that that's the way it is for us in that approach.
Dennis, how could Sharon say something to you that would let you know the significance
or the level of importance of what she wants to say so it would register?
If she approached me, if you approached me just real gently, if you looked at me eye
to eye and just was real calm and if you spoke just real slow and let me know that there
was something that was really important that was on your heart.
And not to be so in a rush and that has a tendency to get me feeling like I have to
be in a rush and it's like there's so many other things that keeps us busy and just kind
of on our toes all the time to sit back but if you can come to me calmly, I think that
has a tendency to speak louder than saying gee I got to talk to you now or whenever there's
something.
Is that workable for you Sharon?
So that's something that you could commit yourself to doing?
And you would be responding when Sharon does it that way?
Yeah I think so.
Now that you've had the opportunity to observe Dennis and Sharon, I'd be interested in knowing
how did you feel about them as a couple.
I'd also be interested in knowing how you would use this sequence in your counseling
ministry.
But that I'm going to come back to a little later.
As I reflected on this young couple, it's such a typical adjustment issue that we hear
in both premarital and marital counseling.
The fears that Dennis had are so common.
So many men want to feel as though they're in control.
One of the other things I noticed here is that with this couple especially, I move them
to interact with one another time and time again and I try to do this with all couples.
I don't want them to gossip about one another by going through me to talk to the other person.
Get them to work face to face.
In listening to myself, I felt I was soft spoken and gentle because I was endeavoring
to match their conversational style so that they would feel more comfortable and that
we could have a better sense of rapport.
Whenever you work with somebody that has a fear or a concern about something occurring,
push to see if that actual fear is actually manifesting itself.
Do the consequences happen or not?
And in most cases, you'll discover the fear is in their mind.
It actually isn't occurring.
Once again with this couple, I tried to look at the times in which they were successful.
Most couples have successful times, but they're ignoring it.
It's up to you and to me to draw this out.
Look for the exceptions and then the positive results of these exceptions and help them
see the benefit of the new changes, of the exceptions.
Reinforce what they do that is positive whenever they share it in the session and get them
to indicate what is going to work best.
This should be their decision, not always ours.
We're there as a guide.
And what you want to do is to also look for a commitment.
Now the portrayal that you saw from Dennis and Sharon was so positive.
I'd like to encourage you to use this in both marriage enrichment seminars, to use it in
Sunday school classes, to use it right in a session with another couple so they have
a positive role model.
This is what I'm going to be doing and I think it could help in your counseling.
I'd like to thank you for taking the time to be a part of this series with me.
I'm going to encourage you though once again to go back through this and watch it time
and time again.
Take notes, tape record your sessions, listen to yourself and learn in this process.
You might also want to use this series in training other staff members or lay individuals
or lay couples as they work with you in your counseling ministry.
God bless you in your ministry with couples.