Hi, I'm Joanne Roberts and this is the Coping with Crossdressing video.
What we're going to do here is talk with real couples who've learned to cope with and integrate
crossdressing into their relationships.
Now some of you watching this video probably believe that's not possible in your case.
We hope to show you that it is possible.
Before we talk to our couples, let me give you a very brief overview on the history of
crossdressing.
Crossdressing has existed in every culture and in every historical period.
Some of the time it's been acceptable and some of the time it has not.
Before World War I, crossdressing was acceptable in this country.
There are historical accounts of womanless weddings as fundraisers and similar kinds
of events.
Female impersonation on stage was considered an art form and one impersonator, Julian Elting,
was so popular that he had a theater named after him.
It was after World War II that public crossdressing became taboo.
But that doesn't mean that no one was crossdressing.
Many continued in the privacy of their own homes.
So what brings it back out into the open now?
Well recent shifts in permissible gender roles for women have encouraged many crossdressers
to venture back out into the public eye.
And crossdressing is a hot topic in 1993 due to movies like The Crying Game and Paris is
Burning.
Now no one knows why people crossdress.
A friend of mine says jokingly, there are at least six good theories about crossdressing
and there are at least six people who fit those theories, but no one theory describes
everyone.
We can, however, say some very general things about crossdressing.
Most crossdressing starts at an early age by five or six.
It starts as play and it may disappear for a while.
And then later during puberty it comes back strong and usually but not always with strong
erotic overtones.
But this eroticism diminishes with time just as it does with every aspect of adolescent
sexuality.
Now while science can't tell us why people crossdress, it does tell us that once these
behaviors and feelings become a part of our personality, they never go away, ever.
So forget about a cure because there is no such thing.
Well that's enough boring theory.
Let's talk with some crossdressers.
How long have you been crossdressing?
Pretty much all my life.
After, probably seriously, after I was like 12 or 13 where I got real involved in, that's
about it.
You want to move to me now?
Ever since I was a child I can remember my first instances.
Just about pre-kindergarten when I played with my mother's lingerie and it evolved for
a few years until we actually bought a television.
When we had a television installed in the house, the lingerie no longer became as important
as watching television.
So it was almost a babysitter for me because my mother allowed me to wear the clothes and
play with them to keep me quiet so that she could do her housework and get her chores
done and it worked out very nicely for her.
However, it obviously opened doors for me.
Actually only about the last five, six years where I felt the need or desire to wear undergarments
and as far as actively crossdressing, probably three and a half years.
So why and when did you decide to tell your partner that you were a crossdresser?
Start with Nancy.
I told her about three and a half years ago, we've been married for almost 20 years and
I had kept it from her all that time.
Of course what was going on in my mind was that I thought over time I could eliminate
this desire and this need to do this.
I tried every experiment under the sun to do that and I went through all of the normal
experiences of throwing clothes away and trying to grow a beard and do everything that was
manly and macho in order to bury it but I was unsuccessful.
And when I came to the point where I realized I could no longer hide this or want to hide
this anymore, I decided to tell her.
And I also knew behind that that one of the reasons, the main reason was because I felt
so alone and the loneliness really drove me to want to set some way up where I could tell
her and explain it to her and hope that it wouldn't do anything to damage our marriage
and our relationship.
So it took a while to get up the courage to do that but I eventually did.
Only soon after where I felt the need perhaps for role reversal in some aspects of our relationship
and very fortunately I can talk with my wife.
I feel we have a very honest relationship together and I let her know.
We talked about it and she's always been very supportive.
My situation I didn't really tell her.
She found my clothes.
I used to travel on the road and she found my clothes in the trunk and that was probably
20 years ago.
We've been married for 22 years but it's taken us probably 18 years to really face it and
to know there's other people out there and we used to go and do motels and stuff.
It took a long time just to be able to go and do it.
At first it was like complete rejection and then we did a little bit and a little bit
and a little bit until it grew and then after we finally found I think when we got tapestry
and we learned there was other people out there and then we started meeting people and
then it just became fun and it hasn't really stopped since then.
How did you go about explaining to your partner that you were a cross dresser?
It was probably some night in one of our nightly talks I just felt the need to just come out
and tell her.
As I had mentioned we were fairly open with each other and there's a certain amount of
trust and I felt I could talk to her and she would be surprisingly, not surprising, she's
perhaps was a little concerned but supportive.
I think we both have the attitude if it makes something that makes each other happy and
doesn't hurt anyone we go with it.
Did you just come out and tell her or did you have any materials or information, any
sort of resources to help you with that?
Not particularly, I guess it was something that was bothering me that I felt I had the
need and I felt maybe something's wrong or maybe not wrong, I don't know.
She's always been the one that if I had to say something I would go to her first.
We probably, well after she found my clothes we just talked about it and I don't think
I even understood it then and she didn't so we got some books and went to the library
and we even read the Playboys and all that and anything to do with cross-dressing and
tried to associate with the people that were the same as us and learn about it.
It took a lot of years just to take the time and learn each little thing and what's up
and actually what we wanted to do and involved with cross-dressing.
So I guess we just really did it day at a time and talked it over and talked and grew
together at it until we got to where we're at now.
Well, I had before I told my wife I had read considerable amounts of information from studies
and magazines and books from the library and I felt that I had pretty good working knowledge
of what cross-dressing was about and how people experienced it and I'd read a lot of case
studies trying to see where I fit in, how did I apply to the experiences of others and
when I decided to tell her each year we've gone for an escape weekend to Toronto literally
to get away from the kids and the hassles and work and just have some fun and this was
very awkward because I wasn't sure how to lead into it but about a month before, a month
and a half before, I told her that I'd like to talk to her about a few things when we
go away and the kids aren't around and of course I was afraid that that was going to
lead her to begin to think of other things that were negative like maybe I was seeing
another woman or something of that sort but I tried to keep it as low-key as I could.
It still worked on her a little bit which I'm sorry for but I didn't know any other
way to deal with that and when we got to Toronto I eventually came out and told her that I
enjoyed cross-dressing and I explained it to her and her initial reaction was a little
bit of surprise because obviously she didn't know this had been going on for close to 17
years and you know when you're married you think your wife knows everything about you
and that you know everything about her so this was a bit of a surprise for her but as
we talked the thing that came out that was most impressive to me was that she became
concerned about me, not about herself, about what all this had done to me and how difficult
it had been for me and so after that I decided well I'm going to try to provide her with
all the information I can and let her take that information and digest it at whatever
pace she felt comfortable with and we would talk more about it and I didn't rush her and
she's developed into a very supportive wife without really any efforts on my part.
It's been through her efforts to find out more and have me answer questions whenever
she had them and then we eventually together led to the concept like Jody had experienced
with tapestry of finding out that other groups existed or that groups themselves had existed
and we decided to try to join one or at least meet with people from one and find out more
about it.
That has led to a number of tremendous relationships and has made this far easier for us to handle
than we ever thought it would.
I think a big part of it is too is that you have a relationship not cross-dressing too
I think and I think we all have good relationships with our wives just in every day so that makes
them want to be part of this too so it's an inner working thing that it's just not all
one-sided or anything.
At least I think that's give and take a little bit I guess is probably what.
I think that's an important key.
One other thing we had answered in the ad we had picked up the magazine and had written
to another couple where we thought this was in the beginning of I guess desire at least
to start cross-dressing and after a period of time writing letters back and forth we
thought we would be compatible.
We met dressed in normal clothes in a restaurant and just that was very important.
The communication seeing that there were other real people out there like us that had some
of the same honesty in their relationship the men having the same kind of desires and
we sort of helped each other and it grew until this one particular couple was one of the
first ones that talked us into coming to the weekend here.
Nancy mentioned something you pointed out again and so I want to explore a little bit
about how you found out about other people who cross-dressed and what did it feel like
for you to find out that you weren't the only one.
Jody?
It was a real good feeling to finally know that other people were there and it was a
normal activity and not only just other people but other couples were very important because
at first like my wife's first interpretation if she was worried I was gay or I think there's
always that overhanging and to have just regular couples that just made so much difference
to us and I think we've all found really great friends through this.
I think our best friends in the world we found through cross-dressing now and we get together
not cross-dressed or cross-dressed but it's just a super band and really helps a lot to
know other people.
It's important to note too that we've found you can't build a relationship just on cross-dressing.
As a matter of fact after you meet others your interests become so alive together that
the cross-dressing is merely an element that allows you to come together sometimes but
you meet other times without the cross-dressing involved to get involved in the common interests
that you have.
So you find out that everybody's just like you and they're normal in their own way.
I like the term that you use normal.
There's sort of a normalcy about it among those people who are in the cross-dressing
community so it's really not as bad or as outrageous or difficult as some people might
make it to be.
I think that also that having friends that cross-dress maybe are better friends because
there's a certain amount of honesty.
Yes, definitely.
You really don't have too much to hide.
It's wonderful.
It certainly makes things much easier, much more open.
Talk some more about the honesty.
You really don't put on a front.
You eliminate the front you might or the facade you might put on with other people.
When you're with other men dressed as a man if they're into football and bowling and
you know hunting and so on and you have any interests along that line you put on a certain
air about the whole thing in the way you communicate.
When you're with others who are cross-dressing those walls come down.
They're no longer necessary.
You can be who you really are and be honest about everything you say and not worry that
somebody's going to condemn you for what you said.
That honesty is a rarity.
It's almost like at times I wish all men were cross-dressers.
It would just open up so many more avenues.
Usually when you meet men it's who did this and who's that and who's this.
You don't even have any of that.
It's just gone.
You just have a true relationship.
Even when you're cross-dressed it's not like you're always talking about cross-dressing
either.
You talk about art or whatever you're into or whatever.
It's just theater or anything you want to do.
People are just a lot more open and alive I think when they're cross-dressed.
Let's go back to couples and relationships again.
Why did you conceal your cross-dressing from your partner when you first got married?
When I first got married I didn't really have any desire.
As I look back over the years, maybe in my adolescence, although there wasn't any desire
to cross-dress that I could feel, there was I guess I remember perhaps being impressed
by men wearing women's clothes without relating anything.
I remember remembering having maybe seen a magazine with a man, a drag queen or perhaps
someone who was perhaps transgender.
It was certainly more interesting but I never related anything to myself until much later
on where perhaps it was a combination of trying to escape from the stress of business and
the everyday activities that I really felt the need perhaps for some sort of a role reversal
as an escape.
It was perhaps a temporary escape.
Slowly, with the help of my wife and talking and doing a little bit at a time, there's
I guess a little bit of a blossoming and it's certainly something I enjoy.
The question again.
Why did you conceal the cross-dressing?
At the time I first met my wife and ever since then we've been madly in love and we just
enjoy the love part, I mean just the sharing and the caring and as a cross-dresser not
really knowing that this is what my destiny was, this something I had done intermittently
throughout my life up to that point, I hadn't conceded defeat yet to the idea of putting
it behind me.
It was something that I thought I was going to be able to eliminate with marriage, with
children, with all the ramifications of owning property and working a career and being a
breadwinner and so on, the role that I knew I was going to be expected to fulfill.
And so I decided over time this was something I felt I could lick, something that I could
put behind me and out of my life and obviously I have not succeeded in that at all.
But you really have succeeded.
I have succeeded.
That's right in many ways that at that time I had never even crossed my mind and at that
time too I also didn't know about the world of cross-dressing and that there were others.
I had seen magazines with drag queens and female impersonators and occasionally in a
movie or something I might have caught a glimpse of something that had to do with cross-dressing
but that wasn't telling me that there were other people like me out there, that was telling
me there were people who did the cross-dressing but they did it for other motives or other
reasons.
For me it was just the pleasure and the enjoyment of being able to transform myself into a woman.
And so...
I think it was probably, this is back when I was 19 years old, so I felt guilty about
it I think.
I didn't understand it, I didn't know where it was coming from and it was so-called not
normal behaviour and I was just married and just felt like you were supposed to be the
breadwinner in the mail and doing this was not in the same mode at all.
And it just took a lot of years just to learn to accept it and that it's not a problem and
you can still be the breadwinner and you can still do all the things you're supposed to
do and you can even be better at those because of what you do cross-dressing because it just
makes you more sensitive and more of a real person in your everyday life.
That's true.
And how difficult was it for you, the three of you, to integrate the cross-dressing into
the rest of your life?
Actually it's been, aside from the fact that we haven't told our children and did not want
to, felt that was on a need-to-know basis and that they didn't need to know, it's really
been a rather easy transition because we share common interests with regard to clothing and
while her styles are different than mine, she and I shop well together and we started
doing things together that were almost like two women doing them together rather than
man and woman and yet she never lost me as a man in our relationship and I never failed
to portray the man for her because I'm her husband and I enjoy that role.
To me the communication skills we've developed as well have been fantastic.
We read each other's minds sometimes now, sort of like on radar en masse, we used to
read his boss's mind and be able to come out and say what he was ready to say.
We do that sometimes with regard to an item in the store that I look at that I want to
buy and she knows already and she's already looking in the rack at the size that she knows
will fit me.
It's a communication that has gone on.
Before that I think the male side of me would not allow to come out for fear that it might
signal something to her that she wasn't aware of.
Babs, have you had any difficulty integrating this part of you into your life and your relationship?
No, much like Nancy Ann, my wife and I, we share some of the, for example, the shopping
and I think she knows my tastes and she's helped me, she's been supportive but it's
another activity that we can do together.
I think in that respect it's perhaps kept us closer together.
We still have our own separate interests but it's one more bond.
I think for a lot of years we did have trouble doing that because we really didn't know
where it was going to lead to or we didn't understand it at all and probably just up
to the last couple of years when we got out into the public and met a lot of people and
stuff that's when it really integrated and it became a big part of our life and our every
day thing and right now we just smile a lot more together every day whether I'm dressed
or undressed and it works beautiful now.
It's almost like sort of an inside joke.
It's something that we can smile at each other and it's almost like playing a trick on the
rest of the world.
Yeah, right, it's our own little secret or what not.
People will say something and you can just look at each other and you know or something
and it's kind of nice.
I don't want to paint an unrealistic picture that's just too rosy so what I want to know
is what kind of stress is caused by the cross dressing, your cross dressing.
I think there is a certain amount of stress in everyone's relationship or everyone's
life for those of us who are cross dressers so what is that stress for you and how do
you deal with it?
The only stress we probably have right now is that our children don't know and our business
people and back home nobody has any idea of what we're doing so probably the only stress
we ever have now is whether that ever happens and then how to deal with that if it does
happen.
Over the years up until we started going out there was a lot of stress because with having
kids you didn't know and we didn't know what it was going to end up being or how we were
going to be comfortable with it and it just was like constantly I want to dress and she
wouldn't want me to or we didn't know how to control it and we didn't really know what
to do and we spent a lot of time in motel rooms getting dressed and you know walking
out the hallway or something like that you know.
After you get all that behind you then you just get out and you meet people and I think
people is the big key because once you get to know people I think it just it works, it
really works well.
Share the load.
Yeah right and just share the load and you have somebody else and not only you but your
wives have other wives to deal with and that helps an awful lot.
I think the stress factor that we deal with is my wife's concerns about where this is
headed.
It's kind of like well just because we come out and we do things together with me cross
dressed and when we're as we're relating to other people she wonders whether this is going
to become more predominant of our time together later on especially after our children are
off on their own and we're retired and we're situated comfortably or as comfortably as
we can be and it's not a question to which I have an answer most of the time.
I only know that I want to continue to enjoy it, I know too that as I get older I feel
that I enjoy it more when I'm in the company of other cross dressers.
It's not a kick for me to dress and pass in the store by myself in order to feel a high
from that as others have told me that's what they feel.
I'm more interested in looking as good as I can with what I have and doing so together
with others who are interested in doing the same thing for themselves and other cross
dressers are all interested in doing that to bring out whatever their best qualities
are and to work on them and to share ideas and tips and so on but the concern has been
as to where it's going and she knows there's no concept of transsexualism here because
I'm not interested in a sex change and I think her concern has to do and rightfully so with
how many days of the week am I going to do this and how often will I be involved in this
and I think my gut reaction is that that will be dictated by us together, it won't be dictated
by me alone.
That's I think the best thing is to keep your wife be part of it and then it's not going
to overpower you because you're going to do it together.
But that as a stress factor is still there and it's always at the back of her mind and
I try to do everything I can to make her feel comfortable with it and then also give her
space so that she can, you know, she wants to back off for a little while and have a
chance to think about it and then maybe come back with other questions or ideas or suggestions,
we do that.
But we still go to Toronto non-dress for our vacation every year so that is one thing.
That's right and we try to do a number of things that are targeted that are husband
and wife.
That's much the same way, there's a certain amount of stress because again business associates,
family, we don't want them to know and I guess there's that kind of fear but also much in
the same way is because to me it's a lot of fun, the desire is very, very strong.
There's a time that we have to, I have to draw the line or we talk about it, there's,
I have responsibilities in my male role and that comes first.
This is really the fun part and it's a leisure activity I guess.
How far as our responsibilities to family change, the relationship may change, perhaps
the cross-dressing role will get stronger, we'll have more leisure time or whatever to
do what I'd like to do but it's still a responsibility.
Nancy Ann brought up a point when she mentioned about transsexualism and sex reassignment
surgery and there's a lot of interest and discussion and talk and use in the cross-dressing
community of female hormones and I'd like to ask you a little bit about that.
How do you feel about the subject of male cross-dressers taking female hormones?
Is that something that you would consider?
Is that down the road for you?
Let's start with Jody.
For me it's not, for me it's, I'm just against it, I don't think you should alter your body
and I think you can have as much fun without doing it and as long as you're just doing
it for cross-dressing instead of, if you're transsexual then you need to do that but I
don't think you need to alter your body, it's not going to be for me.
I'm always concerned about health concerns and what medications can do to you and I don't
think people should take medications, especially hormones or steroids for that matter, without
consultation from their physician.
When it comes to whether or not I would ever consider them, no they're not in my future.
I have no interest in making a change in my body physically.
I enjoy the transformation process to look as much like a woman as I can but I think
I can do that without actually going through a physical change.
But I've read about hormones and speaking to some people that are transsexuals, number
one I think the hormones can be very dangerous without medical supervision.
Also there's an emotional factor.
As far as myself, it's really not in my future, not at the present time, I can't foresee it.
Let's go back again to the cross dressing and how it fits into the rest of your life.
Do you feel that being a cross dresser has made you a better person, more specifically
has it made you a better man when you're in your masculine role?
As a man or perhaps even more important as a person I feel that I'm a little more sensitive
certainly to my wife's needs and I think in general to the way interacting with people
in general.
As in my female role I try and see things from a different point of view and I think
that helps me be a better man in that respect.
I feel that I've come to certainly a much better understanding of what women go through
in life by trying to portray a woman and I feel that as far as the male side of my personality
is concerned I was never a macho individual to begin with or tried to portray that but
now I've even gained somewhat of a loathing for those who do.
I just don't enjoy that because I don't think it's necessary even though people use it as
a protective device.
So for me as a male, Babs was right about being much more sensitive to other people,
how they feel and what they think regardless of whether or not they're six feet six inches
tall and weigh 270 pounds or whether they're a small person or whatever their background
I've become totally non-judgmental as a result of it and I feel so happy about that.
It's like a tremendous burden has been lifted off me because I don't have to spend my time
judging other people.
Definitely it's helped.
I think I'm a lot more caring of an individual.
I'm not so concerned about conquering the world and I'm just real open.
I'm a heck of a lot better father since I've just come out and you know just more sensitive
to the kids needs or to anybody's needs really and I don't feel bad showing my emotions as
a man.
As before you would seem to hide them and now I can show my emotions as a masculine
person too, a lot better.
This is going to be the final question in this part of the tape.
If a friend of yours who was a cross dresser came to you and said I'm thinking about getting
married and I don't know whether or not I should tell my fiance before the wedding,
what kind of advice would you give that person?
I think I would advise that person to try to set the stage to tell her and tell her
about it ahead of time.
I didn't with my wife and at the time I didn't realize where I was headed with this but if
he has that inclination and those desires and some experience with it I think he's
going to have to take that risk because I think she deserves to know.
I've always after as I said I kept it from my wife for a while in our lives but I found
out that she's the person I can share everything with.
She loves me and cares about me and if his fiance feels the same way I think together
they'll find a way to work it out.
I agree exactly the same thing.
The only thing I would wonder is if they had a strong enough relationship to start with
to accept that because a lot of people meet this month and get married next month but
if they were real relationship if it's been a year or two and they've really grown together
and they care for each other then I would say definitely say do it beforehand so that
you can really have an open relationship.
I wish that I would have done it but it took two years and she found out accidentally but
it's taken us a lot of years to grow that probably we could have grown through if we
were open in the beginning but I don't know if we were strong enough before we started
to know we probably would have ended the relationship in the beginning probably.
My question would be how strong is the relationship now with your fiance and I think that would
be the key.
It would be most important to make sure that relationship is strong enough that it will
work otherwise they might be they may not be as lucky as Jody and Nancy.
As the interviewer I'm not supposed to put my own point of view into this but don't
you think that an early discussion is a test of the strength of that relationship and if
it isn't strong enough wouldn't the cross dresser be better off not getting married?
And do you think that you develop that relationship the day you get married?
I think it takes a lot of years to develop a true relationship with your loved one or
whatever and I think definitely my wife and I are stronger now than we were 18 or 20 years
ago so I think it's easier for her to cope with it now because of not just what we've
learned over the 18 years in cross dressing but just because what we've built together
over the 18 years.
You've suggested it's sort of like a judgment call as to whether or not the relationship
is strong enough and as you said maybe they are better off not entering that kind of a
relationship or entering it that soon.
It might put things off a little bit until they got to know each other better if he told
her.
My feeling is it would be better to do that.
I've seen too many people who after they found out and shortly after the marriage it's been
misery for both parties and I think if I had it to do over again I would have told my wife
before we got married.
I believe that.
There's the risk involved and I think it's a balancing act.
How strong is it now or how strong may it be in the future?
I would hate to generalize.
So the point though is that in some cases it might be better not to say something ahead
of time and allow the relationship to grow a little bit and test the waters and see if
it got stronger so that if somebody is out there viewing this video and they're recently
married and they haven't told their wife yet it shouldn't feel so bad.
It's hard enough to make a marriage work without cross dressing but you want to make sure it's
good and solid and in the cross dressing I think in strengthening it once you do get
involved in it definitely adds a lot to our life anyways.
I think it's a call on how strong is the foundation to begin with.
Where are you now and where are you looking at?
How well do you know your spouse or your intended and how well do they know you?
Well that's a great segue because in the next segment we're going to talk to your partners.
Thank you all for joining us and we'll see you later on in the video.
Sounds good.
My first question is did you know anything at all about cross dressing before your partner
told you?
We'll start on the end of Carol.
No I didn't know anything.
I didn't go to the library after he told me.
I just wanted him to talk to me about it so he explained things to me.
Sure.
I didn't know anything about cross dressing.
Nothing.
She basically just taught me.
I knew absolutely nothing about cross dressing.
I did go to the library and then it was a lot of time with Nancy talking to me.
So what was your initial reaction?
My initial reaction surprisingly enough was relief because Nancy had told me that she
wanted to talk to me about something very special and I thought I was competing with
another woman.
Literally another woman.
So the relief came when I knew I wasn't going to be out on the streets or whatever or having
to deal with that.
And from there it was support because I truly loved my husband and I knew it was never going
to be leaving him.
It was going to be my getting educated and we were going to communicate and be able to
work this out like we have anything else.
My first reaction was very mixed.
I found her clothes in the trunk of her car.
I went to look for a frisbee and I found stockings.
So I didn't know why the clothes were there.
So at first like Sandy I was relieved because I just figured they were another woman's clothes
and I really didn't know how I felt at first.
I guess that's what it really boils down to.
But I knew I wasn't going to give up.
I had mixed emotions.
The fact that Babs did tell me without my finding out sneakily helped a great deal and
we talked an awful lot.
We did it a lot in cars so our children wouldn't be around and things were freer taking rides
and talking but really talking.
I could put my foot down and say, well, why are you doing this?
Are you gay?
Or what is the problem?
And when she explained to me that she's not gay, she just feels like a different person.
All her stresses are gone and she feels better.
First of all I thought that she was gay.
I figured that must be the reason.
Is that what you thought too?
I really didn't.
Nancy said that she was not gay and I believed that.
As soon as she told me she wasn't, I believed her.
But that's the first thing that I thought of.
That's very common.
That's the first thing that enters almost anyone's mind when they learn about a male
who cross-dresses, well he must be gay.
That's the stereotype.
But it's not true.
In your cases it's not true.
There are gay cross-dressers but the majority are not.
It also helped that Babs wanted to stay with me cross-dressing rather than go to a guy.
It became a security.
It really did.
It was like I'm not losing him to anybody.
He's just becoming Babs.
From my knowledge from learning over the past three years that I've known, most of the cross-dressers
are the most faithful that you can possibly have to their wives.
Why do you think that is?
I hadn't really thought about that.
I think part of it would be if in fact the wife is supporting their in a very nice world.
They have the best of both worlds.
They can be themselves.
They don't have to feel as if they're going out and trying new directions and going into
untested waters and being unsafe I guess is part of it.
I think truly the other part is because they manifest female instincts and kindness and
gentleness.
I think that all comes out as part of it.
So do you think that it ends up bringing you closer together?
Oh yes.
Definitely.
We were talking about this before.
One of the things is getting past the point of asking why it's happening.
So why is it not that important?
No.
It is happening.
It's a reality.
It's there.
They don't know why they cross-dress.
They can't explain it so there's no sense trying to drive them crazy with constant questions
about why they are cross-dressing.
You accept it as a part of the person and go on from there and I think you can live
a very happy normal life and I think the three of us do.
Yes we do.
Did any of you at any time ever feel like he was cross-dressing because there was something
lacking in you that somehow this was your fault?
Did any of you feel that way?
We hear that a lot from wives sometimes.
I didn't really think it was my fault at all but I wondered if I had something to do with
it but I didn't really think it was my fault.
I think mine was more a question of Nat that it was my fault but why pick somebody.
I'm not a real fancy person.
I don't like the real frills and if this is the type of woman that you're personifying
why would you pick a woman to live with that was Nat and I guess there was some self-doubt
at that point for me.
I didn't feel it was my fault.
Not necessarily your fault but did you ever feel that there was something lacking that
drove you?
We had a good relationship before and it has since become better.
There's more understanding of her.
She would do things and I wouldn't understand why she was doing them now.
I understand.
You get a special bond.
Definitely.
It's just real special.
Isn't anything else if you understand you can deal with it?
Do you have trouble with pronouns?
She he him her?
Just listen to this.
Does it bother you?
Did you have difficulty learning to say her, she versus him her?
Him he him whatever.
At times I still do.
You catch it because you're still dealing with the whole person.
When we're going away for a weekend I sit in the car as we're driving and I go call
her Babs.
Just call her Babs.
Babs.
She's only Babs this weekend.
Babs.
And you have to really remember that.
And then on the way home it's say call her Bob.
Call him.
Because after a trip I did I was calling through the house and I started to say Nancy and my
kids were home.
I mean I stumbled over.
So there's these little things that you trip over once in a while that you have to constantly
stay aware of.
Because it's not an everyday occurrence.
It happens only when there's availability for her to be Babs.
And if it happened every day it would be part of the routine.
But since it doesn't happen every day you have to really think before you speak.
And it's no strain.
It really isn't.
It becomes fun.
And it's not permanent change.
That's why it's hard.
Right.
I'm going to ask you a difficult question.
If I gave you a pill and I told you that this pill would positively absolutely stop your
partner's cross dressing and all of the feelings that go with that.
Would you give your partner that pill?
I would honestly have to say there are times I would say yes and there are times I would
say no.
And the times that I would say no are becoming more and more.
But part of that is just my own changes physically and mentally.
But no for the most part I would not change things.
I love things the way they are.
I'm having a great time.
Sure.
No.
I wouldn't.
Why not?
It's because we're having so much fun.
We've met so many great people.
This opened up a whole new world for us.
I think another reason I want to say it just has brought us so much closer together.
And Jody's getting to be who she really is and who she really wants to be.
I think everybody should have that opportunity to be who they really are.
So no I wouldn't.
Definitely not.
Why am I not surprised?
No, she really, it makes her a whole person.
And if that's the whole person, I love this person, regardless if that's what makes her
the whole person, let it be that way.
I think the other thing that you have to say is it makes us all whole people too.
Because we can give our all to our mates.
Good point.
Yeah.
Excellent.
It is a good point.
Thank you.
I'll give you a check.
Sometimes in trying to explain cross-dressing to other people, it's often compared to things
like drug addiction or alcohol addiction.
In the sense that there is a burden, a stigma, there's a social stigma attached to it, and
there is a burden of secrecy that goes along with the stigma.
Can you give me any kind of sense of what it's like to have to keep a secret like that?
Is that stressful?
Or have you found that you can deal with that?
Well you have someone to share it with right off the bat.
And when you have friends like these friends, you have to be able to deal with it.
Yes, there's stress.
I mean it's hard keeping it from the kids, keeping it from the family, but it's a secret
that I don't think I would change.
And if there were a time when I have to tell the world, I don't think I would be worried
about it if I had to.
It's a good secret.
There is a lot of stress in it.
Like Carole said, it's mainly to deal with the children.
You're just always afraid that the children are going to find out.
Our children don't know.
I don't feel they need to know.
So that's something that's the stress part of it for me, because making sure that they
don't find out.
But it's a great secret.
It's a special secret that we have together.
Yeah I agree.
The stress is trying to keep it from the kids because you really don't want to put them
in the position of having to keep the secret too.
So the stress is coming not from the fact that your partners are cross dressers, it's
not self-destructive behavior.
The stress is because society at large doesn't understand.
That's right.
You don't want children, family members to have to deal with that burden.
Yes.
Am I getting that right?
Yes.
If I asked you what kind of advice would you have for a wife who has just learned that
her husband is a cross dresser, what kind of resources can you point her to?
What would you tell her?
First of all to really talk to him.
To really find out if he knows why, if there is no reason then together look for resources
for magazines, there are TV shows, there are movies, books.
There's so much about cross dressers that they can learn.
There's no reason why a wife has to say, well I don't understand this so I don't want this.
If they have communication, if they can talk, if they love each other, it makes so much
difference.
I think that's the biggest thing is just talking.
You have to talk.
You have to talk together.
And then the other thing is getting into groups and getting out and meeting other people.
That helped us a lot.
Just getting together with other people.
I was saying to you and Nancy you're actually involved with a very organized support group.
Right.
I have a couple of wives, myself and one other that meet on one to one basis with any wives
that want to come and talk to us.
And not as counselors, not as psychologists, as people that are willing to listen and say
hey, what you're feeling is fine.
You're not abnormal, you're normal, you have the right to have certain fears and this isn't
a condemnation of you or anything else.
And just truly being the definition of our group which is a support group.
And we meet them wherever they want to meet and talk.
But we advocate that they read your book.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
I think it's the best book out on the market because it's straightforward and it's not
colored in terms of either the wife or the husband.
And I think you can get some very straight and I think it gives them a point of communication
and a point of talking.
It gives them that framework that you need because the wife really for the most part
has no idea what kind of questions to even ask at the beginning.
I think in the beginning the wives feel that they're really alone.
Right.
Totally.
And you're not.
You're not alone.
We've had a woman that had known for 20 years and thought that all the feelings were wrong
but she had never talked to anybody.
And only in the past six months has she been able to say I'm not crazy.
I do have these feelings and they are okay to have.
So for 19 and a half years they went through almost a living hell because there wasn't
enough communication and there wasn't the information out there that there is now.
This is a question that comes up a lot.
A lot of women don't know how to quite deal with this.
So I'm going to be just blunt.
How does sex fit into the cross dressing role in the relationship?
Is that a part of it?
If it is, how do you feel about it?
If it isn't, how do you feel about that?
I don't go to bed with Babs.
If she wants to be Babs for the night she sleeps with me but not near me.
I mean we sleep in the same bed of course.
But there is no sexual contact with Babs?
Because I say to myself I'm not a lesbian.
When Babs becomes her other self she is more than welcome and we have a good life.
She is still the same person when he is still my husband.
I need a husband and I want a husband and that's what I have.
Everything is good.
I'm not a lesbian either.
I think at first that thought crosses your mind.
I want to be clear on this, what I hear you saying is that yes sometimes you will have
relations with your husband while he is cross dressed?
When he is dressed, yes.
But he is still my husband.
It's just close.
It's close.
I'm with Carol.
It's two separate things but our love making is much more intense over the last three years.
Not as strictly man and woman.
When Nancy comes to bed we sleep in the same bed but we are not together in the sense of
sexual behavior.
Nancy comes to bed as himself, as the male, then we have a wonderful time.
It's even more intense than it was for the first 17 years of our marriage and we thought
it was good then.
When you are out together though, do you ever feel uncomfortable appearing in what seems
to be a lesbian relationship?
Does that bother you at all?
No, I go out with my friend.
It's like being out with a friend.
That's my friend and my best friend.
It's wonderful to have both your husband and your best friend and your lover all in one.
Just with you all the time?
All the time.
I can share anything.
Thank you very much.
What we are going to do now is talk to both of you, your partners and you together.
Thank you.
What's the single biggest issue that still remains in your relationship that relates
to your partner being a cross dresser and let's start with Carolyn Betts in the middle?
Biggest problem?
Single biggest issue?
The time it takes her to get dressed.
Why is that an issue?
Because I've always been on time all my life and waiting for her, it's a matter of my not
being on time.
We're late for different appointments that we have with other cross dressers and that's
an issue but aside from that there's nothing wrong with her.
There's no other issue in the relationship?
Not with her.
Jodi and Char.
I think ours is probably just my biggest thing is if the children would find out.
I don't feel it's right now so that would be our biggest thing right now is if the children
know that's all right now they don't need to know now.
It would be fun if they did know because I think we'd all get along great but I don't
know if the trauma would be worth the happiness afterwards or the experience.
And Nancy and Sandy?
I think the biggest issue is for me and that's wondering when the kids are gone because ours
don't know either how far Nancy will want to go, how often is it going to be 24 hours
a day, 7 days a week, will I still have my husband?
Overall in your relationship has your partner's cross dressing had a positive effect or has
it had a negative effect on the relationship and this time we'll start with Sandy and Nancy?
I think it's been a positive impact.
We've always been able to communicate but we can communicate even better now because
we truly understand each other and know the total person.
For us my cross dressing was the secret in our lives and once that was out there were
no other secrets.
There were no other things to keep hidden and as she said we were far more open with
each other.
We talk a lot more now than ever before and I think that's for us very positive because
we tend to compromise on things we talk about and we don't so much give into each other
as just accept what the other has to say and feel that it's important we compromise.
Positive, negative?
Definitely positive.
In what respect?
There's no question.
It's the same thing as what Sandy says that we're a lot more open with each other now.
We're just real.
We're real.
Yeah that's the bottom line.
We're just real.
It's real.
She's a great friend.
You know we have a ball together.
We enjoy each other.
Babs, Carol?
She's my best friend.
It's a positive, it's both positive and negative.
You have to understand that.
The positive part is that she becomes Babs and she is free of stress, free of aggravation,
free of any kind of problems.
All the problems that she's had in the past or that day have been released.
When the wig goes on she's a new person.
The negative is only that we have to sneak out of the house because our children don't
know either and that leaves questions.
They are constantly looking at the fact that I have a lot of wigs.
They don't see me wear wigs.
It's a little negative there.
But in general we're able to strengthen the relationship.
I think the honesty, the openness, we're able to share more and understand each other.
We can share each other's feelings and look at things the way she does.
I think the best friend has a lot of merit.
I know we are best friends.
There's nothing that you can't share now.
There isn't that male-female separation between what's male and what's female.
It's blended together so now you don't have that separation.
Like they said, we're true.
We're true to being ourselves.
Don't you think that could be very threatening to some people though to blur the line?
For a lot of people who feel very comfortable with very rigid rules about what the roles
are, when you blur those roles, wouldn't that make people be nervous?
How would you answer that kind of, if a wife came to you and said, I'm concerned about
this blurring of roles, what would you tell her?
With our relationship all the way down the line since we were married, and I've only
known about the cross-dressing for the last three years, we have always shared everything,
whether it's the duties around the house because we both work.
It's just one more thing that we've shared.
If you're not secure enough in who you are, and you can't let your spouse be as secure
as they can be in what they truly are, then you're losing.
A big part of their relationship will be behind a door that she will never know, and she will
never understand the person totally.
I understand Nancy a lot better now, and why some things happened earlier in the marriage
now because I know why it was happening.
That was all, of course, prior to when I communicated to her that I was a cross-dresser, so I couldn't
tell her, and I was afraid to let certain things give her the idea that there was something
different about me.
I had to portray that role.
Now as you said, that fine line is kind of blurred.
I think it's important and meaningful that it is blurred.
I don't want to be a macho male.
She's not interested that I be a macho male, and yet before I had to portray that as much
as possible because my mind told me that's what I had to do for her.
Communication is the most important thing in any marriage, and in a marriage where you're
told about it at a later stage of your married life, it helps that you've always been able
to communicate, and this was just an added little something that they had to tell you.
Something to work out or to do.
But you work it out.
But life and marriage is a compromise all the way down the line, and if people that
are from straight relationships think that they don't compromise, then they don't communicate
either.
Right.
We've just added one more facet to it.
It's all a balance.
That's right.
It makes the two opposites easier to balance by coming closer together and understanding
each other.
The one thing, like you said about not being macho, like in our regular life we're just
regular men.
You wouldn't know that we cross-dress.
We live our activities like normal.
Nobody's going to say we're just a cross-dresser or what not.
We're just regular, and we're regular together.
We just have fun together too.
Exactly.
Let me go back to something that I think it was Nancy and Sandy touched on, and I think
personally I think it's real important.
Let me ask you how important you feel that communicating and negotiating, communication
skills, negotiation skills, how big a role does that play in your relationship, and not
just with cross-dressing, but your entire relationship?
Oh, it's the whole ball and wands.
That's the whole thing there.
It's the whole ball and wands.
What kind of marriage could you have?
Let's try Carol and Beth.
Tell me how important it is.
What kind of marriage could you possibly have if you don't communicate?
You have to be, if there's something wrong, Babs will, well, Babs as her other self even
would not leave me alone until they found out, she found out what was wrong.
And if I couldn't communicate, then I have the problem.
It's so important to understand the other person.
You're living with this person.
You want to know all that you can about them so that you can help them, so that you can,
if they're troubled, find out what it is and comfort them.
Everything is a form of communication.
And it also can be defined as truth.
And sometimes it's very hard to face the truth and tell somebody else the truth.
But that's where the communication and being honest comes in.
Now you can look at each other, you can look at other couples, and we've met some wonderful
couples.
And everything is straightforward.
I think there's less game playing in the cross-dressing community than in the regular world.
Oh yeah.
There's nothing's hidden.
There's nothing.
Just everybody is real.
Everybody is real.
Just go do it.
All the fronts have been broken down.
Okay, that's the communication part.
What about negotiating and compromise?
Let's try with Shar and Jody, because Jody indicated that there were some issues when
he first told you.
So what kinds of negotiating and compromises have you worked out?
You're talking about like over the years and how we started a lot.
A lot, yeah.
We compromise a lot.
We do in everything we do.
Yeah, in everything we do.
It's not just in the cross-dressing, it's in everything that we do.
How important is that negotiating for what each of you want?
I think it's real important, because we have to make each other happy.
It's real important, but it doesn't become an issue.
You have to be happy yourself.
You just do it automatically.
I'm concerned with her, she's concerned with me.
I don't think negotiating is the right word.
It doesn't mean you don't sit down and negotiate.
You just do it for each other because you love each other.
You don't negotiate.
Well, you might not see it as a negotiation, but it is.
It's a transaction because each of you get something out of it.
And sometimes what happens is a cross-dresser will state a position, I want this, and that's
it.
Or a wife will say, I want you to stop, and that's the end of it.
There's no open door for compromise there.
So that's what I'm trying to find out.
Where were the negotiations?
What kind of things did you negotiate on or did you compromise on?
Sandy and Nancy, maybe.
It's really hard to think.
Compromise is a workable concept, but the negotiation part, I guess maybe...
Well, it's a give and take.
Yeah.
But so is a marriage.
Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with if you want something, rather than placing it almost
as a demand on your spouse, instead you're going to present it as an option or a concept
for both of you to think about.
And you don't make a decision about it right then and there, but because you're introducing
it to your spouse, you have to give her or him a chance to think it over.
And that's part of what I would call a negotiation process.
It's not a demand and it's not saying it's going to be this way and there's no negotiation
to be done.
For us, we've always kind of taken those things and brought the priorities up, discussed them,
and some of those things we didn't come to agreement on right away went on the back burner.
They didn't die, but they were brought up later on at another time when we felt this
is a better time for us to talk about it and negotiate it out.
Or maybe something has been thrown out onto the table and it's kind of left there, but
the other person thinks about it and then they bring it up when they feel that they're
ready and comfortable with it.
I don't think, I know with Nancy and I, if there were a demand put on the table, there's
a definite difference between a demand, I will have it this way, and what do you think
about this?
We just don't do demands.
I don't think any of us do that.
Rather than negotiate and applying an adversarial relationship, I think with us, we both have
the same overall goal, each other's welfare, and it makes it easier.
I mean, we each have different, perhaps little different agendas or we want to do certain
things, but it makes the compromise much easier because we're both looking for overall the
same thing.
I want to talk a little bit about extended family, about friends, about children, about
brothers, sisters, parents, even people that you work with.
Has there been any overflow?
Has there been any kind of impact at all on this, what's called extended family in terms
of cross-dressing in the relationship?
How has it changed the way you interact with those people in your lives?
And Carol's thinking, or maybe you're the one there.
Well, we have friends and then we have friends, and it's difficult because we do have a lot
of friends that want to know where we found these new friends.
And we're going away for a weekend in the Poconos with these new friends.
And how come you didn't invite us?
So that's the only difficult part with the friends.
I mean, there's no way to be comfortable in telling the friends.
We found wonderful friends here and throughout where we live that are cross-dressers.
And I feel a different camaraderie with a cross-dressing couple than I do with my regular
friends.
I say normal, but I don't mean it that way because I think this is normal.
We have friends on both sides too.
And as far as the extended family knowing, none of our extended family knows.
But in that itself is kind of neat because it's like our secret.
And it's something that we have together that nobody else really shares with us except for
our other cross-dressing friends.
Which are a big part of our life now, our cross-dressing friends.
When we go out with our other friends, I know we can go out with another couple and I'll
sit with the guy and see what you can do with his eyes.
This is like a business guy, you know.
We had two friends that got divorced that we were very close with and we were really
at a loss for close friends at the time.
And when we came to the Poconos, we met Babs and Carol and they have become a significant
part of our lives.
So what we have done is to make it real for our kids is that we have, the families have
met as a group.
Anywhere from going to New York and seeing a couple of Yankee games to them coming up
to our house on a visit.
So we have become both normal and cross-dressing friends.
So there's been a significant impact on your extended family.
Yes.
We've made a whole new set of friends.
And we've done the same thing too.
We've done a man dressing and stuff and they've met the kids and all that stuff.
My children know at least eight of the couples that we know as regular people.
And it's all in the straight community.
And as Carol said, that issue has to do, there is an issue and that has to do with these
new found friends all of a sudden and where they've come from.
And also receiving phone calls from people that they had never talked to before and names
that they now have to learn.
And you know how difficult it is sometimes to remember names and link who's who and
where they're from and so on.
So there's an issue involved with that but we sort of, we handle that.
We handle it and by keeping them literally in the dark about it, by having them meet
our new friends, they realize that well these are nice people and these are people that
they'd like their mom and dad to become associated with and do things with.
And then of course afterward when you do things again, it's much easier because now they've
had a chance to meet them.
And it has softened everything so much for them that now it's natural.
It's fine.
Okay, let's stay on the subject of children.
A lot of times, and I've heard this happen to people who end up getting divorced, the
argument is used that because the father is a cross dresser he can't be a good parent
and the mother doesn't want them to see the kids.
How do you feel about being a cross dresser, how do you feel about your partner being a
cross dresser in terms of also being a parent?
Can a cross dresser be a good parent?
Is that possible?
Let's start with Sandy.
I think definitely they can probably be a better parent because they can cease things
from both sides and they have a feeling for the sensitive and the strictness that has
to be there with raising a child.
But I think, well I guess I just think they can be a better parent.
I have felt more comfortable in my parental role since I told my wife about my cross dressing,
not just because she knows, but because we know together and in dealing with our children,
I feel that I don't judge them as much as I might if I was a total male in the male
role as to what they should be like and how they should feel about people of different
races, creeds, sexual preferences, etc.
And so it has allowed me to soften my relationship with them.
Soften tremendously.
And I think the result of that is that if you have boys, you're not going to raise them
necessarily with a macho hand like you.
They must go out and play football or they must do things that are necessarily boyish
in nature and I feel more comfortable in the role of a parent now that I know I'm sharing
this with somebody else.
And I just, I think it has changed me dramatically as a result.
Okay.
Adamson, Carol?
I think it's maybe a little more understanding that there's definitely more sensitivity
toward the children.
I'm perhaps a little more broad minded in that.
I don't think there's any negative effect.
I'm probably, I think I'm a better parent for that.
Sure.
She really is.
She's calmer about a lot of things since a lot of the stress goes out when she cross
stresses and she'll come back into the situation less stressed and she's never taken it out
on the children if she's had a problem because she always can revert to wearing the underwear
or going to bed in the nightie and she enjoys that.
I think they're definitely better parents.
There's no question.
She's so much more sensitive and she can talk to our kids about anything.
It makes no difference what they talk about.
It can be, it's their friends too.
Yeah, their friends come over to the house and they really can't understand how we can
be so open and that our kids will just come and talk to us.
It doesn't matter if it's something about school, something sexual, whatever.
It's just real open and it's all to do with the cross-dressing.
Not all of it, but basically it is.
Because we're so more open.
It opens your eyes to so much.
Learning how to be open came from being able to deal with the cross-dressing relationship.
And being less judgmental.
Yeah, that's definitely so.
And teaching them to be less judgmental in the process.
That's the thing that really means a lot to me.
Do you think you will ever tell your children?
Don't everybody answer it once.
No, I don't.
It's very much on a need-to-know basis.
If Nancy were to pass away before me, the clothes would just be gotten removed.
It would be the extent of it.
If I pass away before Nancy, then Nancy would call the kids in and have a talk because we
wouldn't want them to find out if something happened to Nancy afterwards.
If my children would ask, or anyone of them would ask, I think we would be able to tell
them because they'd be mature enough.
My children are old enough to be mature enough.
We on the other hand did not tell my in-laws when they were older because they're set
in their ways and they wouldn't understand.
A five-year-old, I don't think would understand either.
But our children are old enough that they would understand we are not going to run and
tell them.
But if the time comes when we have to, if they ask me, I will be honest with them.
That's good.
We're not going to sit down and say, kids, we have something to tell you.
But if the situation comes up, then we would tell them we would be truthful with them.
We're not going to lie to them.
We have one child that is nosy.
I really think that she has a hint of what's going on.
I'd really like them to know.
I'm real close with them every day with everything else and it would be nice to share with them.
The same as I share with you.
For them to know.
I don't think they need to know and I don't even know if it would make any difference
in our relationship.
But it's part of me that I don't get the chance to share with them and it would be really
nice to share that part with them.
What is the status of curiosity?
Age ranges of children?
I was 16 and 17.
12 to 23.
17 and 19.
Interesting.
I have one in between but I didn't mention it.
We're at the end.
I want to close this up.
For all the couples out there watching this video, for all the women out there watching
this video, what is the one key thing, one key message that you want to send to that
woman who's sitting there watching this video wondering what the hell's going on with her
relationship?
The wife has got to know that she is not the only wife out there and she has people that
she can share and find out information from and share her feelings and find out what the
other wives are feeling.
How does she find those other wives?
Hopefully, through her husband, he will have researched to find clubs, support groups,
even counselors would know places that they can go to talk to other wives that are in
the same situation.
Anybody else want to add to that?
I think also another thing that each wife needs to know that her husband, even though
he dresses in a dress, is still her husband.
They still have the same relationship.
He's still the same person in a dress or out of a dress.
It's the person you married, the person you fell in love with.
In other words, it's just clothes.
Right.
More or less it is.
She has to know that she has to make adjustments, but those adjustments will be worth it in
the end because when you get a best friend out of a situation where you think, oh my
God, look at this person, it makes a difference.
It's just a matter of coping just for the little bit because then it becomes a pleasure.
Then she'll know the total person.
Right.
If you're lucky enough to have somebody special in your life, then just hold on and go and
it'll be worth it.
It's great when it hits.
If you love the person before, you'll love them afterwards.
That's right.
I want to thank you very much for giving up your time to do this video.
I'm certain that this is going to be a great help to a lot of people.
Thank you for being here.
May everybody please.
Thank you.
Okay.
I'd like to thank our three couples for giving up some of their time here at the Paradise
in the Poconos weekend.
I especially want to thank the wives of the cross dressers for being so courageous and
honest for the camera.
You'll find additional help in my book, Coping with Cross Dressing, Tools and Strategies
for Couples in a Committed Relationship.
It's available direct from CDS or from other vendors like the International Foundation
for Gender Education and the American Educational Gender Information Service.
If you have questions or suggestions that you'd like to share, please write me at this
address.