Good evening once again. This is Julian Barber with the latest returns in the District of Columbia Primary.
Bobby Kennedy is winning a complete victory here.
He apparently will have all 23 votes at the Democratic National Convention.
The forces supporting Senator Kennedy are leading in the fight for delegates by a margin of about 9 to 5.
They also are winning control of the local Democratic Central Committee.
In the battle for control of the DC Republican Committee, the supporters of the present chairman, Carl Shipley, apparently are going to stay in charge.
You can see here that Gilbert Hahn, the Shipley candidate for chairman, is well ahead of the challenger, Philip Guarino.
And Shipley himself, seeking to oust Guarino backer Louis Bruninger from the job of national committeeman, also is well ahead.
In the voting for the Republican Committee itself, where 74 members are to be elected, the Shipley slate is leading.
That's the story at this hour.
Forces of Senator Robert Kennedy winning a complete victory, a sweep, in the DC primary.
The incumbent Democratic National Committeeman, Reverend E. Franklin Jackson, apparently is on the road to defeat.
Kennedy is going to win, it appears, all 23 delegate votes at the Democratic National Convention.
Tilford Dudley, the former chairman here, apparently also is going down to defeat.
He was not running for re-election as chairman.
He was seeking a position on the committee.
So it seems that the old guard, if we may call them that, and the Democratic Party are going to be defeated.
The Kennedy broom is sweeping clean.
Stay tuned now for a special CBS News report from Indiana.
We'll be back at 10.30.
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Campaign 68, the Indiana primary with CBS News correspondent Walter Cronkite.
The second part will be the forgotten American with CBS News correspondent Joseph Bente.
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Good evening.
Senator Robert Kennedy has won the first primary test in his attempt to secure the Democratic nomination for the presidency.
With some 38 percent of the ballots counted in Indiana's primary today, Senator Kennedy has 41 percent of the vote, 136,000 votes.
Governor Roger Branigan running as a favorite son, 29 percent or 97,000 votes.
And Senator Eugene McCarthy in his fifth primary test, 30 percent of the votes or something over 100,000.
CBS News estimate of the final result based on our sample precincts shows Kennedy winning with 43 percent of the vote.
Branigan and McCarthy just about splitting the remainder of the votes.
Branigan perhaps a hair ahead with 29 percent and McCarthy 28 percent of the votes.
On the Republican side, Richard Nixon was not opposed and write-ins are not permitted in Indiana.
He has some 209,000, is coming up to 210,000 votes with 38 percent of the vote counted.
And looks like he's going on toward a record number of Republican votes in this primary.
Vice President Humphrey was not on the Democratic side of the ballot.
Governor Branigan originally was a stand-in for President Johnson, but when President Johnson dropped out of the race,
Branigan stayed in as a favorite son to hold on to Indiana's 63 delicate votes at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
He did not declare as a stand-in for Hubert Humphrey.
However, many of the prominent Democrats in Indiana who supported Branigan, including organized labor in many areas,
also supported Branigan and they are supporters of Hubert Humphrey.
Let's check in now with our correspondents who have been traveling with the candidates during this Indiana campaign.
Roger Mudd at Kennedy headquarters in Indianapolis.
How did Kennedy do compared to his expectations?
Well, not as well as his expectations.
He had hoped, I think, out of this three-man race to leave Indiana with a 50 percent plurality.
He didn't get that, but he did succeed in knocking a couple of notches into Gene McCarthy.
This victory here has given him momentum to move on to Nebraska, the South Dakota, Oregon, and California primaries.
So I suppose under the circumstances, a three-way race in a state basically conservative, he is more than pleased with the results.
David Schumacher at the McCarthy headquarters.
Does Senator McCarthy figure that he was defeated by Kennedy tonight?
No, I wouldn't say that. Eugene McCarthy was hoping for 25 percent of the vote.
He's done better than that, although anything less than 33 percent is going to make it difficult for him to raise money.
Incidentally, Walter, you know, this has been dubbed by McCarthy's young supporters the magical history tour,
and his young supporters here are still hoping there will be one more bit of magic.
John Hart outside of the Democratic state headquarters in Indianapolis.
John, what about Governor Branigan? How does he look on this result tonight compared to expectations?
Well, Walter, it would be easier to answer that if Governor Branigan were here.
He's in Chicago at the moment making his speech. That's the kind of campaign he's been running.
He did say today that he was going to win. He did not.
It's been a comfortable campaign, and he wanted to be the Hoosier leading the Hoosiers to Chicago. He's not going to be.
Roger, what were the issues on which Kennedy won?
Well, I couldn't name them really because I don't think there were any great issues.
Mostly it was personality, charisma, if you like, or the Kennedy magic.
Listening to him last night on the television, you would have thought that Kennedy was a states' rights candidate.
Return government to the people and abolish welfare and replace it with jobs.
Incidentally, as John and Dave were talking, the table full of Kennedy spokesmen just called the results tonight here an impressive victory for the senator.
That's their latest word.
David, McCarthy's key issue. He had the teeth kind of pulled from it, didn't he, with the Vietnam peace move. What did he campaign on?
Walter, that was his first issue, and I think we've got to say that Eugene McCarthy does not make things easy for himself.
First the war when it was unpopular. Now he's set about an examination of the whole processes of politics and governments,
and that was particularly tough in the state of Indiana.
John Hart, Governor Brannigan, had a little problem not being a really serious candidate for the presidency on this issues thing.
What was the basis of his campaign?
Well, aside from the provincial appeal, Walter, he really was sort of a chummy down at the courthouse kind of campaign.
He depended on this organization, which is one of the last in the United States, to retain a large patronage system.
He also had a big help from the Indianapolis Star, which favored him and their coverage,
and put front page cartoons of the other candidates written in acid.
He appeared to want to go to Chicago with chances of getting a better deal for Indiana politicians in the party.
Going to the Chicago convention, not to a speech tonight, that is.
That's right.
Roger, just one more thing. Did the charge that Senator Kennedy was spending vast amounts of money in Indiana, did that really hurt him?
Well, I don't know. I guess it didn't. I think it probably further decreased his standing with those who were going to vote against him anyhow.
Obviously, it didn't cut into him deeply here, but neither did his response when asked to reveal his expenditure dispel the idea around the country among the anti-Kennedy people that when a Kennedy runs, he does spend vast sums of money.
And his refusal to release his statistics just heightened that impression.
Thank you, gentlemen. We'll be back in a moment with more on campaign 68, the Indiana primary.
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At 40 percent of the vote in, Eugene McCarthy has some 30 percent of that vote in Indiana.
And CBS News' estimate is he'll end up with 28 percent. And David Schumacher has been covering his campaign and is with him right now in Indianapolis.
David?
I can see on my monitor here that David Schumacher and Senator McCarthy have just come into our room at the McCarthy headquarters there in Indianapolis.
And as soon as David gets his microphone connected around his neck there, I suppose we can go ahead. David, are you prepared?
Walter, I'm here, let's say.
Senator McCarthy, looking at these returns now, what do they mean both in Indiana and to the future of Eugene McCarthy?
Oh, I don't know what they mean to Indiana. It means the Indiana delegation, I assume.
Chicago will be for Senator Kennedy on the first ballot. I don't know what they mean in terms of my future. I think we're doing very well here.
It's interesting to see just where the returns came from, where my votes came from.
They established what we've been establishing in all the other primaries that I can get votes that no other Democratic candidate can get.
I expect the results here both in terms of the percentage and also in the source of the votes would probably show me,
as the recent polls have shown me, to be the strongest potential Democratic candidate for next November.
Well, Senator, when Robert Kennedy first entered this race, I recall asking you whether you could handle the Kennedy money and glamour and charisma.
What's your answer to that question now?
Well, I don't know. If that had been all that had been involved here, I think the results would have been somewhat different.
In addition to running against Senator Kennedy, we had the governor who was in it,
and I think that some of the votes that went to him would probably have been mine.
Plus the strength of the national labor organizations, which were in here asking people to vote for the governor as a stand-in for Senator Humphrey,
so that in some ways I suppose the results here are inconclusive for everyone.
They'll take some interpretation, but it was said I'd get 20 percent, probably 19 percent,
and it looks as though I'll get approximately 30 percent, which is 50 percent better under these circumstances. I think we made a good showing.
You think that Governor Brannigan clouded the results by his entry. Will the situation be much different in Nebraska?
I'm thinking particularly in terms of a debate with Senator Kennedy, which he did not agree to hear.
Well, he won't have quite the same excuse in Nebraska that he had here, and as far as I know, there'll be only two of us entered,
and I hope that he would debate here, either with me alone or with the governor.
I think that would have helped, the kind of confrontation in which people could have made a choice between us,
and I'm hopeful in Nebraska, without the third candidate, that we may have one or two direct appearances
so that people will have a real basis for comparison.
Well, now, Senator, it is often said by reporters that there's no difference in issues between yourself and Senator Kennedy.
Once you even called it a horse show, I recall. Is that all there really is to this?
Well, there are some differences even in a horse show, you know, questions of style and kind of projections
of what the horse might really do if you put them to work,
and I think that there are enough differences so that people have some basis for a choice
if we can give them a chance to make the comparisons, and I hope we can do that in Nebraska and Oregon and also in California.
David?
Senator, uh, Mr. Major?
I don't know whether you out there, you and Senator McCarthy, have had the results of the District of Columbia primary tonight.
There, Senator McCarthy was not entered, but there were two slates pledged to Hubert Humphrey and one to Kennedy there,
and on the basis of the returns we have up for this time, Senator Kennedy is leading with 60 percent of the vote,
Hubert Humphrey's slate splitting the other 40 percent.
I wonder, Senator McCarthy, how that looks to you.
Kennedy has picked up two primaries tonight, it looks as if.
Doesn't that give him quite a lot of momentum for the primaries ahead in Nebraska next week and so on?
Well, I don't know, Walter. How many do I have now? You counted them lately?
Yes, I've got them right here on my fingertips.
How many were there? Four. Four.
Plus I won the college polls, so it seems I'm leading by five to two as of now,
and the results here showed he didn't really get a majority of the delegates or the votes at least,
so I don't see this as any very serious setback to my campaign at all.
Walter, in the few seconds remaining, one thing that occurred to me in watching Senator McCarthy's campaign for so many months,
he said it had been based on student power and on poet power at one point and more recently on harpsichord power.
I think you're basing your campaign on the wrong things perhaps.
No, I don't think so. As I look at the results in this election, as I expect they'll show,
as they have shown in the other primaries or in areas where I didn't do as well as I might have done,
it generally shows that the votes that go to my opponents are votes that would go to almost any Democrat in a general election.
The primaries are not simply matters of piling up delegates, not at this stage,
but rather demonstrating what your strength is as one who can win in November.
And I think that the party leaders who come to Chicago, and I think maybe even some commentators a little later when they get done with the numbers game,
will take a look at that and this will be the judgment to be made in Chicago.
And it seems to me that as things are building up, that unless the party is sure of victory next August,
I'll probably still be the front runner as I now am.
Senator McCarthy, there is no question in your mind then, but that in a race with a Republican,
that you're the strongest candidate the Democrats could have.
I think that's the way it stands now.
It may be the vice president can come on and show some strength, but I think that's what the polls tend to show,
and that's certainly what the results of the primaries.
I may have to look at this Indiana one a little more carefully tomorrow, but that's what they have been showing,
and I see no reason for any change.
Senator, we'll be watching for the Nebraska returns now a week from tonight.
When you go to that primary and on then to Oregon, California.
Thank you very much, Senator McCarthy.
Roger Mudd is right across the street over there with Senator Robert Kennedy.
Roger?
Senator, we were just watching Senator McCarthy on the monitor claiming that he is still the front runner after tonight's results.
What's your opinion of that claim?
Well, I happen to be very pleased about what happened here in Indiana, and I'm very pleased about what happened in the District of Columbia,
but I'd be less than candid if I didn't say this a long time until August.
But I came here into the state of Indiana against all of the advice of every political leader in the state of Indiana.
Ran against an incumbent governor who was very popular with a very strong political operation here in the state of Indiana,
which everybody generally felt couldn't be defeated.
And the polls showed that Senator McCarthy was running ahead of me amongst Democrats in the country.
And then the polls on various networks and the news magazines said that I was going to do a good deal worse here in the state of Indiana than evidently I have.
So I'm pleased. I think it's better to do win than become second or third myself.
Well, now some of your spokesmen...
And as I say, I think to do also well against a Hubert Humphrey in the District of Columbia, win almost two to one there is a bright spot.
But as I say, I think it's a long time between now and August.
Within an hour, some of your spokesmen said this was an impressive victory.
I thought you had to come out of Indiana with 50 percent to call it impressive. Is that not accurate?
I know. I had never heard that.
Well, I've seen it printed and not specifically denied by the Kennedy staff.
Well, I guess...
You're satisfied with this result tonight?
Yeah, I never heard that.
I think that all of the predictions that were made at the time I came into this campaign and before I even began the campaign was the fact that I would be very lucky to...
I mean, the great struggle was between Senator McCarthy and myself and Roger Branigan, the governor's favorite son, was expected to win.
I don't think anybody expected that I would do as well, really, as the vote showed that we did.
And I think also the fact that the vote showed that it carried every major city in the state and did well amongst all groups within the state.
And I think it's promising, as I say.
I temper it by the fact that it's a long time between now and August and the Chicago convention.
But to come in here under these circumstances against the advice of the political leaders and with all of the pollsters, for instance on NBC,
said just two nights ago that I wasn't going to get 37 or 38 percent to be able to do this well is very encouraging.
What do the results tonight tell you about yourself as a politician?
I'm sure you must have been aware that the anti-Kennedy feeling was strong, at least measured by public opinion.
Do you feel more confident about your own ability to go in?
Yes, I think there's an awful lot of talk about that in certain circles and certain parts of the United States.
But I was treated very, very warmly in the state.
I would say if the governor won the state just by 240,000 or 250,000 and to be able to defeat him,
have the Indianapolis star here in Indiana virtually cut me off completely as far as any fair news coverage.
And also under the circumstances, it's very, very encouraging, as I say.
I haven't. Until we get to Chicago, we're not going to know, but I'm going to take my candidacy to the people.
I've gone to the small towns and I've gone to the cities and I'm going to go to all racial groups.
I think we have major problems within our own country.
And I'm hopeful that perhaps that I can do something about it.
And the fact is that my candidacy had the support of those who formerly were antagonistic toward one another.
For instance, up in Lake County, Indiana, of both groups has to be very, very encouraging.
Walter and Roger Mudd, this is David Schumacher with Eugene McCarthy just up the block from you.
There's been a difficulty, of course, in staging any kind of a debate.
I wonder if this time if we could ask both men if they're willing to meet in the Nebraska primary
and hold a confrontation of some sort, a joint appearance.
I don't know. That seems... You're talking to me?
Right, sir. We'll ask you first.
Well, I don't know. You ought to raise that question here tonight.
I, of course, have said that I was willing even in Indiana and I said I would in Nebraska.
But it's, you know, we haven't really quite finished adding things up for tonight.
I'm willing, yes.
Senator Kennedy?
Yes, I've always said that I'm willing.
I think that Vice President Humphrey is a candidate and I would hope that he would enter this effort as well.
Senator McCarthy knows Vice President Humphrey has made statements and his backers and supporters have made statements
that he's the frontrunner. Senator McCarthy feels that he's the frontrunner.
I'm not making any predictions about where I am because I think that the only way I can do well
is obviously take my candidacy to the people and do well in the campaign with people.
But I think it would be very helpful for Senator, for Vice President Humphrey to become actively involved
in taking his campaign to the people themselves because I saw that the people can pass on it.
And I think this is something more than just political leaders and politicians.
I think this has to have the support of the people themselves and I think that's what at least we're trying to do.
Can I squeeze in one last question?
How much did the issue raised by the local press here and by McCarthy that you were buying, trying to buy the election, cost you?
Can you measure that?
Again, I think that the fact is that our expenditures were not out of line.
We were expenditures of about $550,000 or $600,000, which I think were in general line with the other campaigns.
Secondly, where the expenditures go is the television.
And we would all cut down, as Senator McCarthy would admit and agree, I'm sure,
all of us would cut down 80 percent of our expenditures if television wasn't so expensive.
If television would make all of this time available to all of us as a public service,
then there wouldn't be any great expense in a political campaign.
And at least to make it available at cost would seem to be a major step by the television networks and the television stations.
Instead of in a political campaign to have the idea of making a profit from a political campaign,
I think that they should make the time available for free.
And they're not willing to do that, at least to make it for cost, because I think that that would be tremendously helpful.
Senator Kennedy, we're going to have to ask for equal time on our own air if you continue at this pace.
But don't you think, Walter, there's been so much talk about that,
that if we just start to analyze it and look at it ourselves, that's where the money goes.
And that the money goes in advertising newspapers and the two media who are critical about campaign expenditures are newspapers and television,
yet they speak no words about their own role in it.
And I think that it is slightly hypocritical.
It would be interesting, for instance, how much the networks have made from this political campaign, how much money they've taken in on that.
I'm not getting any of it.
I don't think the networks are doing very well on this one.
But I just think that if we're going to talk about it, that I have traveled all over the state and have talked to all sections of the state
and appeared in all sections of the state in small towns and large cities and tried to do the best that I could.
As I say, I had difficulty here with the Indianapolis Star and the afternoon paper because they virtually blanketed me.
So we have to turn to television.
If television would cooperate and make this time available, it, of course, would make a major difference,
and the expenses in a campaign would be changed dramatically.
So I would hope that you would take that up with everybody as long as we're talking about it.
And I'm glad that you asked me the question now.
I was wondering if you're glad.
Well, no, I'm getting nervous.
I assume Senator McCarthy would endorse that position.
Well, I just say that I never really accused Senator Kennedy of buying the election here, Roger.
There may have been some who did, but I didn't do that.
And the other point is we could appear together on television.
We could save half the money anyway if we're worried about time and money.
You know, we could get Vice President Humphrey.
Why is it necessary?
We don't need three, really. We don't need three. Let it go.
Well, thank you very much, gentlemen.
You really didn't need us, Walter.
You really didn't need us in this interview.
Yes, we do. We always need you, Roger. Thank you.
Senator Kennedy won tonight in the northern state, which it might be, might have been expected to be most hostile to him, as a matter of fact.
Indiana has a strong tradition, as you probably know, of conservatism.
There the American Legion has its national headquarters.
The Ku Klux Klan was powerful in the 1920s, not to draw any comparison between those two organizations, of course.
The John Birch Society was formed in Indiana in the 50s, all indicating the strong conservative trend at any rate.
In 1960, anti-Catholicism by all of the polls contributed to a crushing defeat for John Kennedy there.
In 1964, Alabama's George Wallace won 30 percent of the Democratic primary in Indiana.
In addition, Kennedy faced that powerful, old-line Democratic patronage machine.
You know, it's been said of Hoosier Politics that practices regarded as corrupt elsewhere have been accepted unquestioned in Indiana for years,
and gotten into the law, a percentage return from state employees to their parties, for instance.
When each county, the local party leader as well, is set up as a director of auto and driver licensing,
and part of that fee goes directly into the parties, not the state's coffers.
The governor and the state organization control more than 8,000 patronage jobs.
Each of those job holders this time was asked to contribute in the Branigan campaign, and it was reported that one who refused was fired.
Organized labor also has been a big factor in recent years in Hoosier Politics, especially for the Democrats.
The state AFL-CIO board decided to stay neutral in this primary race,
but the big Indianapolis AFL-CIO and many locals came out for Branigan.
A strongly pro-Humphrey national labor leader sent many key figures into the state to work for the governor,
leading to my remark a little earlier that the Branigan supporters in many cases were identical to the Humphrey supporters in Indiana.
About the only large union which held back was the United Auto Workers, which does lean to Kennedy.
In a moment, we're going to take another look at the Indiana returns and what they mean.
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In Indiana's big primary today, with 45% of the vote in, Senator Kennedy has 41% of the vote, 163,000 votes.
Brannigan, that's Governor Roger Brannigan, the favorite son, 29% or 114,000 votes,
and Senator Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota, 30% of the votes, 116,000 going on toward 117,000.
CBS News estimate of the final result based on our sample precincts, Senator Kennedy will get 43% of the vote,
Governor Brannigan 29%, and Senator McCarthy 28%.
Well, that's the vote. Joseph Betty at our election analysis desk has been poring over those returns.
Joe, what do you read in them?
Oh, Walter, Senator Kennedy's strongest showing was in the big cities and among Negro voters.
In almost exact proportion, that was where Senator McCarthy was weakest.
The senator from Minnesota, for example, got only one and a half of every ten Negro votes,
while Senator Kennedy was getting six of every ten.
Kennedy's poorest showing was in the small cities and towns in the rural areas,
especially in the southern section of the state.
It was in those areas that Governor Roger Brannigan had most of his support.
Brannigan held an edge over both Kennedy and McCarthy, only among farmers and in the southern part of the state.
Senator McCarthy's best showing came in areas where he probably least expected it, among working men,
in sections of the state where there was a strong white backlash sentiment.
There and among white-collar workers, McCarthy did very well, too.
He ran ahead of McCarthy in most overall blue-collar districts,
and he fell only slightly behind in those blue-collar areas where there was white backlash sentiment.
Of all the candidates, tonight's returns probably will have the most meaning for Senator McCarthy.
Once again, as in Wisconsin, the urban voters, especially the Negroes, proved to be McCarthy's Achilles heel.
Walter?
On the Republican side of the ballot in Indiana's primary today, there was only one name.
That was former Vice President Richard Nixon.
With 46 percent of the vote in, he has 245,000 votes.
Looks like he'll go on toward some half million votes, which would be about 25 percent better than he did in the 1964,
or 1960 primary when he was virtually unopposed also in Indiana.
There were no opposition, no write-ins permitted in Indiana,
and Governor Rockefeller declared his candidacy too late to get on the Indiana ballot.
We'll get Eric Silveride's views on this election in a moment.
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Eric Silveride, how do you solve this?
Obviously Richard Nixon and Robert Kennedy have every right to feel very good about tonight's results,
but certainly McCarthy doesn't have to feel too badly about it.
But Kennedy has succeeded in firmly establishing himself now as a front runner in this first primary he's been in.
It's his first elective test in the Midwest state.
Perhaps the more significant fact is that he won so big in the big industrial cities,
and that's what makes him look fairly formidable tonight.
And this is not going to be lost on party leaders in the big industrialized non-primary states like Ohio or Illinois or Michigan.
I would think in some, Walter, it would seem reasonable to say that Kennedy has not been slowed down.
McCarthy has not been stopped.
And there's always Vice President Hubert Humphrey off in the wings, but very potentially formidable indeed.
And that's the Indiana primary. This is Walter Grandguide. Good night.
T.O.P. News, Campaign 68, the District of Columbia primary. Now here is Julian Barber.
Well, as Robert Kennedy just said in Indianapolis,
he used what he called his 2-1 victory in the District of Columbia as a bright spot.
And at this hour, the backers of Bobby Kennedy appear to be winning a thorough victory here in the District of Columbia.
There would seem little doubt about that.
That means they'll control both the 23 votes of the Democratic National Convention and the local party central committee.
It would appear that Reverend E. Franklin Jackson has gone down to defeat.
Wilfred Dudley has gone down to defeat.
The Kennedy forces firmly in control.
Standing by at this moment at the local Kennedy headquarters is Stephen Gere with the head of the Kennedy slate, the Reverend Channing Phillips.