essional music
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songs
Thank you, thank you, thanks everybody and welcome back to the Conan stage here at Universal
Studios Hollywood, where we have had an interesting and very varied week.
Thank you very much. Today's program, I think you'll find both fascinating and confusing.
It's about people who have made the most profound decision of their lives to physically change
their sex, but then later come to the conclusion that the decision to become a transsexual
was the wrong one. But what do you do then? Can you go back? Jerry Sousa, for example,
was born a woman. She had three children when she decided to become a man. She was altered
surgically. Then she raised her kids as a man. But 13 years later, she came to regret her
choice. And now, as you can see, Jerry Sousa is once again a female. Her daughter, Laurie
Davis, is also here to tell us what it was like when mom became Uncle Jerry. And then
years later, mom once again. Brian Neal was born a man. He went through exhaustive preoperative
sex change procedures. While living as a woman for 14 years as a she, Brian married a serviceman,
but lived to regret the transformation. Just released from the hospital two days ago. Brian,
as you can see, is once again a man. He's here to tell us about his ordeal. Kate Bornstein
changed from a man to a woman, but this former fellow still prefers sex with women. Kate
is a lesbian transsexual who prefers to be a woman as well as to love a woman. Dr. Jane
Thomas herself, a transsexual, is a psychologist who counsels people in transition prior to
their surgery. Transsexual regrets. Who's sorry now? That's the focus of this edition
of her all day. Okay, we'll start right out with Jerry Sousa. Once a woman with three
children who became a man and 13 years later was surgically transformed back to a woman.
She wrote about her personal recovery in the book Bailing Out of Homosexuality. And I guess
you'll explain for us, Jerry, what that title signifies. Sitting next to her is Laurie Davis,
who is Jerry's eldest daughter. Jerry, at what point in your life, in your married life,
did you feel that, well, you just weren't a woman naturally? Well, actually, it started
long before then, Geraldo, growing up, I just had feelings that of alienation actually from
my female sex. And I felt that I was quite unhappy growing up. And I felt that if only
I were a boy that I would be happy. And so I began to fantasize what it would be like
to be a boy. If you had these fantasies, if you were troubled about being a woman, why
then get married? Why then have three children? I think so many people do this, Geraldo, hoping
for a quote cure. And of course, it doesn't work. Did you feel during the time that you
were married, during the time you were bearing children, that really you were a man locked
inside that female body? I just felt very confused. Obviously. There came a time after
your children were heads. How old were you, Laurie? I was nine. Nine years old. So you're
the middle child? I'm the oldest. The oldest. Okay. So here you had nine. What were the
other ages? Help me. Lisa was three. And Andy was three months. Yeah. Three months. So consider
this, ladies and gentlemen, she has a three month old child, a three year old child and
a nine year old child. And all of a sudden, Eureka, I want to be a man. I had read a book,
Geraldo, that my female lover that I was living with at the time, a story of a autobiography
of, I guess, the first and certainly one of the more famous people with the label transsexual.
And I identified with so many of the feelings. And I thought this is it. And this was while
I was pregnant and I had already made up my mind while I was pregnant that as soon as
I had my baby, that I was going to have the surgery. So here you are in the most feminine
of circumstances, a child growing in your belly. And still you say, this is alien to
me. I want to be a man. How much time passed from the time you made the decision to the
time you actually went ahead with the operation? It was less than a year, but it was a decision
that had been coming on over a period of time. And I had been through therapy and all kinds
of testing and whatnot. And so it wasn't a decision that I just made on the spur of the
moment. Laurie, do you remember the first time you saw your mother suddenly become a
man? Yes, I was, I, my mother had left me from the time I was about three years old.
Both my parents went separate ways and I was raised by my grandfather who was my mother's
father and my grandmother. And so I had been living with them and my mother would come
and visit me periodically. And I had no idea what was going on or anything like that. I
knew that she lived with women, that she slept with women, but I had no idea about the other.
And suddenly she walked in the door one day and my grandfather kind of motioned towards
her and said, this is your mother. And I just, it was totally overwhelming. I, you know,
I would not, I would not have recognized her had my grandfather not have said she had a
beard and she just looked like a man. You have these photographs here. Let me, I want
to show, let's get these right here. Okay. Here is Jerry as she sits here and this is
Jerry after the operation. Did you feel at home finally at peace finally with your gender
having transformed physically into this person? Initially I did, Geraldo. It was the feeling
of having come home, really. It was the realization of the, you know, the anticipated Eureka where
everything is supposed to be happy ever after, you know. Did you, do you recall your feelings
when grandpa pointed you out to Lori and said, there's mom, now uncle Jerry? I cringed.
I just cringed inside. See, I could maintain the illusion, Geraldo, and in retrospect now
I can see that it was living in so much denial. I was an alcoholic and alcoholism is called
the disease of denial. And you don't just deny that you're an alcoholic. You deny anything
and everything around you that you don't want to deal with. And so denial and alcohol and
other drugs just kept this illusion going. And that's just what it was. In retrospect
hindsight is wonderful. I wish all reporters, you know, we could wish we were 10 years later
and could report with great authority on things that we see now, but we can't. And you didn't.
And for how many years did you live then as a man? Well, it was, I had the first surgery
done in 1969. Let me, I want to be very, very blunt here. You were surgically altered. You
became a man. Well, I never actually became a man. I think transsexual is really a misnomer
because you can't really change your sex, but I changed my presentation. Let's put it
that way. Were genitalia attached or whatever? No, I never went quite that far. Um, Geraldo,
I stopped just short of that. What about your breasts? No, those were removed. Mm hmm. Vagina
was removed, complete total hysterectomy. I did all the things that a normal woman would
rather almost die than have done to them. And I paid a doctor to do them. And then,
and then, and then you get to the point where you say, God, I've made a mistake. And it
was God that opened my eyes. There's no choice about it. It was a spiritual awakening and
a spiritual rebirth in terms of realizing that, you know, I looked at myself one Saturday
afternoon and I had been in this 12 step recovery program for alcoholics. The chemicals were
out of my system. And I began praying for God to show me what truth was because I didn't
know what truth was. And they say in this program, be careful what you pray for, because
that's what you get. But Jerry, you said, I want to be a woman again. No, I just said,
open my eyes to truth. That was as far as I could get Geraldo. And the Saturday afternoon,
I saw the naked truth quite literally. I was standing, getting ready to get in the shower.
The male hormones had done a job. I had body hair. All I was like a gorilla. Okay. And
I had worked out at a health spa. I had big old muscles and I looked at myself. And in
that instant, now I had been living this way basically for 13 years and I looked at, and
I saw myself for the first time because God opened my eyes because that's what I prayed
for. And I was horrified, absolutely horrified. I could not believe that I had done that to
myself. And I just said, God help me. The undoing of her transformation, the personal
stories from our other guests. Who's sorry now? Our focus will be back in two minutes.
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Dick, how's your day in the dark been so far? Great, except for doorknobs. Whoever put them
at that height was a very cruel man. Are you wrestling with some heavy stuff these days?
Here Norman Moore at First Church of the Nazarene, 40th and Inglewood, beginning 7 o'clock this
Wednesday. Let me introduce the rest of our studio panel
right now. First we have Brian Neal. Brian is the fellow born a man, took preoperative
sex change procedures, and lived and was married as a woman. And just last week, he surgically
removed his breasts. And now, as you can see, Brian is back to being a man. Kate Bornstein
is not really a confused or regretful transsexual. She is a lesbian transsexual. She, you know,
changed her sex from man to woman three years ago, but she has always and remains attracted
to women. Dr. Jane Thomas, who is a veteran of the Geraldo show, she has been an expert
here before, is a transsexual psychologist based here in Los Angeles. She counsels so-called
transitionals before their surgery to make sure they are stable enough to handle the
profound transformation. And Geri, would but you had had a Dr. Thomas to advise you, would
you have gone through the operation you did? I don't think it would have made any difference
at that point, Geraldo. I think when you're living in total denial and total illusion
and you're very skilled and gifted at saying the right things at the right time, I think
that you can, you know, talk your way into anything at that point that you've set your
mind to do. Even that, even something as profound as you, Brian, talked yourself into doing.
First of all, how are you feeling, I must ask? I'm feeling great, thanks. Yeah, really
good. So can you briefly describe exactly what the procedure was, the surgical procedure
that you went through? Well, yeah, sure. I had taken hormones for 15 years and in 1980
I had implants, breast implants and I had also had some silicone injections and when
I had made a decision to return back to being Brian once again, I had the implants removed
but I still had extra tissue from taking the hormones for 15 years so I had that reduced.
So basically it was a breast reduction? Well, it was more of a breast reduction slash mastectomy,
yeah. Really? It's a lot to get to. A lot, a lot. It's a lot to go through. Yes, it is.
The title of this program is Who's Sorry Now. Did you come to a point in your life, Brian,
where you said this is not me, I am not this woman? Yes, I did, I did. I grappled with
the decision to go with the final surgery for many years. I had perfected my female
identity to the maximum. I was very accepted in society. I did many, many things that some
transsexuals don't even get to do. When Brian says he perfected his female identity, he's
not telling you the half of it. Take a look at this. He was a dish, wasn't he? But this
was not you, eh? It was me at the time, yes. A lot of my process, I call it a process because
I'm still in it, I think that we're all in a process, experience in life, you know, going
through whatever we go through. My situation is quite unique, but when I was going through
it, you know, that's who I was at the time. And you married a G.I.? And I married a G.I.
Were you happily married? I, you know, I thought I was, you know, I really, I mean it was okay
for a little while, but because of my own uncomfortable feelings about what I was going
through, what I was doing with myself, it was doomed to fail and, you know, I was heavily
into drugs also. I totally identify with that. Let's go back from the drug business. Let
me go back in your life to your childhood. That's a good place to start. Thanks. One
of five boys, is that it? One of five, yes. And all the others, real butch, real macho?
Real butch, motorcycle members, fighters, boxers. And you, the sissy of the group? Yes,
I was the little, you know, little, little sissy. The runt of the litter? The runt of
the litter, so to speak. And the boys persecuted you as children? Yes, I mean, I can sit here
with a smile on my face and tell you I had a very painful life. I mean, it was not very
easy for me. Did you ever, Brian, excuse me, did you ever rail out and say, I'm not Brian,
I'm whatever you're... Oh yeah, yeah. I remember one instance actually in front of a group
of my friends that I had, I had this uncontrollable rage against my mother because she had embarrassed
me in front of my friends and called me a name, you know, like a sissy name or something.
And I screamed, yes, I am. And that's, you know, what I am. And, you know, and it's,
you know, that was quite, it's a memory that, you know... Do you remember that fateful day
when you said, I'm going to be what I really am. I'm going to be the lady that I feel in
my soul. Yeah, I remember when I made the decision. I was about 18 years old. I had
been, you know, cross-dressing and I had been, you know, running around with a bunch, with
a group of other transvestites and other transsexuals where I had grown up. And I had quit school
because it was too painful for me to go to school. So I just sort of dropped out. And
I think at that point I dropped out of society, so to speak, and I got involved with these
people. And I sort of toyed with the idea. And I said, well, maybe... The one thing that's
important here is that people accepted me this way. You see, I was getting acceptance
as a woman. I had never gotten finally, finally in my life. I had never had acceptance, love,
a sense of responsibility. Then may I ask you, sir, the day when you realized that that
acceptance, even this marriage, was unnatural, not you? When was it?
Well that, you know, that, that, that, you know, there was always a cord through, there's
a thread throughout my whole story of low self-esteem, of not accepting myself really.
Although, you know, being very attractive and, you know, being like a chubby, ugly little
kid and then being this, you know, really glamorous... Look again, really glamorous.
You know... Can you see this?
It's very easy to become seduced by, you know, by that, by the external, the externals of
being beautiful and attractive. Do you miss this woman?
I don't, you know, really miss it. I mean, if I want to, I'm an actor. I can get dressed.
I can play a role in a play. I can, you know, do an act. I can do anything. I don't... The
best part about it is that if I did choose to be Tish for a day, I can take it off. I'm
not trapped with the physical circumstances.
Are you happy to be back?
Oh, I'll tell you.
Welcome home.
I have no regrets.
We've got to take a break. We'll be right back.
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Geraldo, we'll be back in a moment.
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We've got the spirit at Yakima Dodge 1710 South 1st Street. Getting out in the community
is something that I really enjoy, especially when it means working with children. All during
the month of February, students of all ages will be improving their reading skills by
taking part in a read-a-thon to help fight multiple sclerosis. So when I go to the schools
to talk to kids about a read-a-thon, I get as much out of it as they do.
Just before I get to Kate's story and show you her picture, I just wanted to tease you
here. Dr. Thomas-Jane, tell me, is this a common after-effect to people going through
this profound operation, these sex change procedures, becoming transsexuals?
To go back?
To regret having done...
No, it's not common. The studies that have been done show that about 90% of the people
that have gotten as far as doing the surgery would do it again.
How many?
90%.
90%, right.
So 9 out of 10 would do it again. Personally, I'd do it every day of my life because that
was my personal journey.
Let me show you Dr. Thomas' picture. Take a quick look at her on the swimming team at
the Y.
A few years ago.
Is it better on that camera? Yeah. A few years back.
But Geraldo, this is such a personal journey for everybody and what you've heard here so
far are two very courageous stories of people that are trying to find that and I think one
of the problems is that in doing that, we tend to look for acceptance from other people
and what I didn't hear from either one of these is finally having to say, that's not
enough, I've got to accept myself.
Oh, absolutely.
Corrine, are you still in touch with your brothers, by the way?
I very rarely have any contact with my family.
Did they follow this odyssey?
For obvious reasons.
Pardon?
Did they follow you through this odyssey or have they always been scorned for?
They were as accepting to me as they possibly could, you know, I mean, it was very hard
for them, you know, to have a brother that was a sister, you know, and a gorgeous sister
that their friends would hit on.
Really?
That made it even more difficult.
I could see all the possible permutations of that.
But what the doctor is saying is absolutely correct. I have the acceptance within myself
and for many years I didn't, you know, I thought I did, I was confused and kidded myself for
a very long time thinking that I did have that.
Let me show Kate's picture now, Kate in theater.
What role is this, Kate?
Oh, that was the chorus in Henry five, Shakespeare's Henry the fifth.
Henry the fifth.
Take a look.
It's a shell shocked veteran.
Really?
World War three.
Take a look.
Talk about macho.
Yeah.
Now I'm going to start, Kate, with a question that I heard during the commercial break being
uttered by one of our guests here.
For Kate is a lesbian transsexual.
She still always has, prefers sex with women just as she did when she was a man.
So the question is.
Okay.
If you've liked women, why did you become a woman?
I mean, if you were a man before and you liked women then too.
Let me amplify the question.
Why bother?
It's the most common question and it's the one that prevented me from going through all
of this, Geraldo.
I had sexual orientation and gender identity totally confused.
In this society, we're told that if you're a woman, you love men.
And we're told that if you're a man, you love woman.
Well, there I was in a man's body loving women and wanting to be one, a woman.
And I was really confused until I broke up the difference.
My gender identity was woman.
It answered the question.
Who am I?
My sexual orientation was women.
Who do I want to be romantically involved with?
Two different questions.
Couldn't you fulfill those sexual longings just with fantasy since you're with women
anyway?
Oh, sure.
The sexual part wasn't bad, but it never fulfilled my gender identity.
You wanted to be what you loved.
Or I loved what I was.
But you hated what you were.
I hated what I looked like.
You hated being a man, didn't you?
That's right, yes.
But you love, do you hate men?
I mean, I don't know.
No, I don't hate men.
I went through a period of being very threatened by men because I never really accepted that
part of myself.
I had a question that I wanted to ask Jerry.
When you were pregnant with your child and decided that you wanted to become a man, what
was your feelings for your baby that you were carrying?
Unfortunately, I was so out of touch with reality at that time that I just was unable
to relate to my child, my son, who passed away in April.
Just this past April?
Yes, for all I know.
And you know, I look back and it's just like we said earlier, the hindsight, you know.
This boy?
Yes.
Did he understand the radical transformation you'd gone through?
What child can understand it, ask Laurie.
I mean, the hell that you put your children through.
Go ahead, Laurie.
She did, you know, by the confusion and everything that she had, she did something I don't think
that too many people have done.
She had the first surgery right after he was born and so he grew up with her as his daddy
and we knew her, my sister and I knew her as our mother and so she took away his daddy
when she went back to being, you know, to looking like a woman and she took away our
mother when she changed to looking like a man.
Is it fair to say that your son was profoundly distressed and disturbed and in fact had mental
problems because of what you?
But he was so loving and so accepting, you know.
I want to say one thing at this point, it's like, God has forgiven me for the things I
inadvertently did to others that hurt them so much, but the scars remain, Geraldo.
You can never undo what you've done.
But God gives me the grace and the strength to live one day at a time, one heartbeat at
a time, looking for the resurrection morning when Jesus comes when I will see my son again.
God bless.
We'll be right back.
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If you're talking about it, it was fascinating, really.