Iran, often accused by the West of instigating terrorism.
Israel, often accused by Arab neighbors as the underlying cause of terrorist incidents worldwide.
Tonight, a unique exchange of views between the ambassadors from Iran and Israel.
Good evening, I'm Charles Gibson, and this is Nightline.
As an American clergyman finally comes home after a year and a half's captivity in the Middle East,
we'll talk with the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Benjamin Netanyahu,
and the Iranian ambassador to the UN, Saeed Rajai Khorasani,
about the issue of terrorism and the uncertain future of the Middle East.
This is ABC News Nightline. Substituting for Ted Copeland, reporting from Washington, Charles Gibson.
Father Lawrence Martin Jenko came home to the United States today.
He went to the White House to deliver a personal message to the President, a message from his captors.
He would not say what that message was, but presumably it pertained to the fate and conditions of the three men held with him.
The three remaining U.S. hostages that we know are alive,
David Jacobson, Thomas Sutherland, and Terry Anderson, sent word by videotape with Father Jenko,
saying they were told they'd be killed if the U.S. did not negotiate with their captors.
It raised the question again, should a nation negotiate with terrorists, with kidnappers?
The Reagan administration has said it will not.
Father Jenko would say only that his message was received by the President with warmth.
Father Jenko was in captivity longer than even the Iranian hostages.
He was held for 19 months.
As Betsy Aron reports, during that period of time, he missed entire chapters of the unfolding story of how the world deals with terrorists.
Beirut, where violence against persons is standard operating procedure.
An American priest was kidnapped in Beirut today, Father Lawrence Martin Jenko,
the director of the Catholic Relief Service in Lebanon, was taken from his car by several gunmen.
During the 564 days in which Reverend Jenko would be held captive, 40 others would disappear.
Businessmen, government officials, journalists from France, Britain, Korea, Cyprus, Iran, and the United States.
They were kidnapped by shadowy groups, many with previously unknown names.
Their demands covered an assortment of grievances.
Arab against Israeli, Shiite against Christian, Christian against Muslim, believer against non-believer.
Before the end of the year, even the Russians would be targets.
On Reverend Jenko's 68th day of captivity, Terry Anderson, Middle East bureau chief for the Associated Press, disappeared.
His sister, Peggy Say, appealed for his release.
If there is anything that we can give them to bring our hostages home, then let's at least talk about it.
A dying brother appealed for his release.
I have cancer, and I made a vow I would not die until I saw Terry.
That vow is getting very close to an end. Please release him.
Glenn Anderson is dead. Terry Anderson is still being held hostage.
These family appeals will not be the last ones heard from relatives of those being held hostage.
On Reverend Jenko's 138th day of captivity, David Jacobson, the director of the American University Hospital in Beirut, was grabbed.
Less than a month later, on June 9th...
In the Middle East today, another American has been kidnapped in Beirut today.
He is Thomas Sutherland. He was the dean of the Agriculture Department at the American University in Beirut.
And then on Reverend Jenko's 158th day of captivity, 153 passengers aboard a TWA flight from Athens to Rome were hijacked by Lebanese terrorists.
Keith, we must land at Beirut. No alternatives.
The United States government reiterates what has always been its position regarding negotiations with terrorists.
The United States gives terrorists no rewards and no guarantees. We make no concessions. We make no deals.
For 15 days, Americans watched as a kind of circus unfolded on television with appearances by hostages, negotiators, U.S. government officials, relatives of hostages.
Ask the person, or call the person, or tell the person to please end this thing today.
Thank you. Thank you.
And then it was over. The TWA hostages freed. Those given credit for the release? Shiite negotiator Nebby Berry, Syrian President Assad.
In the course of the negotiations, Israel agreed to begin releasing Shiite prisoners.
It was said the United States pressured Israel. Officially, no one admitted pressuring anybody.
But the prisoners and the hostages were released.
The United States says it doesn't negotiate with terrorists, but someone must be talking to someone either directly or through an intermediary.
It's talking about the talking which tends to get confusing.
Well, talking you can talk. It's probably useful to talk if only to convince the terrorists that they have nothing to gain.
On September 30th of last year, four Soviet embassy employees were kidnapped.
One of the hostages was killed. The remaining three were released a month later.
The Soviets said the release came about because we have friends in Lebanon and Syria.
Then on September 14th, Reverend Jenko's 249th day of captivity, the Reverend Benjamin Weir is released.
There is no official explanation as to why.
I can assure you that no deal was made and that our position on no concessions to terrorists has not changed.
It is now October. Six Americans are still being held hostage and the cruise ship Achille Laro is hijacked off the coast of Egypt.
Along with the New Year came new violence. In April, a bomb explodes in a West Berlin discotheque and Americans are killed.
This time there is retaliation.
On April 14th, American warplanes bomb what are described as terrorist-related targets in Libya.
And on this, Reverend Jenko's 462nd day of captivity, he and four other Americans are still being held hostage.
One, William Buckley, is reported killed.
Then just six days ago, Reverend Jenko was freed. Again, no official explanation as to why.
The Reverend brought with him a tape from David Jacobson, now in his 431st day of captivity.
My captors tell me that this is the very last sign of their goodwill and that our release will be by death if the government doesn't negotiate right now.
I think the public should react to it like any other television commercial by any lobbying group trying to get its point of view across.
There are days when I believe that the government really doesn't care about me and that we have been totally abandoned.
It's all too easy to explain what is happening.
The whys of hostage-taking and the solutions to the terrorism are far more complex and controversial.
Once taken hostage, there are three ways to end the ordeal.
The first and worst, to be declared dead by photograph with the body still missing.
The second, to be murdered, the body shipped home.
And finally, the third and only acceptable solution, to be freed.
That's the errand for Nightline in New York.
When we come back, an interview we recorded earlier today with Iran's ambassador to the United Nations, Saeed Rajai Khorasani,
and with the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Benjamin Netanyahu, internationally recognized expert on terrorism,
whose recent book points to links between Iran and terrorist organizations.
This is ABC News Nightline.
You can't get where you're going if you don't know where you are.
And that goes for your financial roadmap, too.
The first step in setting up your financial plan is to determine where you are right now.
Make a list of what you own.
These are your assets, things like furniture, appliances, savings accounts, and bonds.
Don't forget to figure depreciation on your car.
If you own a home in the States, use the fair market value.
Now make a list of what you owe.
These are your liabilities.
Subtract the totals, and the difference is your net worth.
If your liabilities exceed your assets, you need to begin a plan that will help you balance the budget.
Now that you know where you are, you stand a good chance of getting where you're going.
For help with your personal financial management, check with your community financial counselor.
Oh, cute.
Nice cut.
Ah, high school. Those were the good old days, right?
Fascinating courses, really great teachers, lots of fun times, no pressures, no hassles.
Happy days, right?
Okay, you didn't like it all that much.
Maybe there were subjects you didn't understand, or teachers that didn't understand you.
It was tough to concentrate.
Maybe you had to drop out to get a job, or to help out your family, whatever.
You ended up without a high school diploma.
At many military installations overseas, you can take classroom courses that will get you all the way to a high school diploma.
Maybe all you need to do is take a test and earn a high school equivalency credential.
You've come a long way since these days.
Learned a lot, got things together.
You know now, you need that high school credit.
And now, you know how to get it.
Israel's ambassador to the UN, Benjamin Netanyahu, is considered an expert on international terrorism.
He's the author of numerous articles on this subject.
Ambassador Netanyahu recently published a new book entitled, Terrorism, How the West Can Win.
And he joins us now from our New York studios.
Also joining us from New York is Iran's ambassador to the United Nations, Saeed Rajai Khorasani.
Ambassador Rajai, when an incident like this occurs in any country, a hostage returns, others are still being held,
it raises the question, should you negotiate with such kidnappers, such terrorists?
Well, what is the question? Should you negotiate?
Well, it depends upon a lot of circumstances.
I believe under the present circumstances, the best thing is to just address the issue to Father Jenko,
who is amongst us, and whom the people of the United States wish to hear.
So eagerly, I don't know why I should be interviewed instead of him.
I think as soon as you have access to him, you should produce all your questions to him.
He can tell you, he can inform the American public of so many things that we don't know and about which we all want to know.
Because that addresses the specific problem in this instance,
and I'm not going to ask you to determine what American foreign policy ought to be.
I'm raising the philosophical question that's raised by this.
This is not a philosophical question. This is a very tactical question.
The philosophical question is, if you want to define it in a broader sense, is something like this, for instance.
Why such things are taking place in the Middle East? Who is responsible for that?
And how can we approach the issue in a sort of in-depth manner in order to solve the problem, basically and radically,
rather than just attacking the issue from a military point of view or from a tactical point of view,
whether we should negotiate, not negotiate, should we negotiate in a hotel, should we send somebody to Beirut, or do other things?
These are irrelevant things.
Well, but I hear you saying there should be different tactics then in each situation.
I think this is not the tactics that you are facing and you are ignoring.
It is the philosophical approach. It is an understanding of the situation,
because it is the correct understanding of the situation which defines your strategy and your tactics.
Alright, Ambassador Netanyahu, let me try the same thing on you.
Is there a philosophic approach that can be taken in these issues?
Of course, there is both a moral and a pragmatic question involved,
and I think that the American government's policy is one that we firmly support.
That is, you don't negotiate with terrorists who yank people, innocent people, and hold them hostage,
because if you do, you violate a moral obligation to future hostages,
and I think in the long run it is also the only pragmatic way to bring these things to an end.
Having said that, I think there is a difference between negotiating and communicating.
You do want to talk to these people, and what you want to do is gain three things.
You want to gain time, you want to gain information, which you often do,
you also want to give them an opportunity to get off the tree that they climbed on.
But I think there is a fourth thing that has been used in several instances in the past.
Why should the terrorists be the only ones who are putting pressure on us?
Communicating is also a way to put pressure on them, and such pressure has been delivered in the past,
telling the terrorists that they will be held accountable if any harm is done to the hostages.
So you don't want to give in, but you certainly don't give up.
Well, but I think that's the frustration in this instance, and now I will, I guess, move to the specific.
That is the frustration in this instance and others.
There is a basic question of how you apply the kind of pressure that you're talking about.
I think that the real question is who's doing this, who's controlling the situation.
These terrorists are not operating in a vacuum.
These terrorists that are inspired by Iran are controlled by Syria directly
in the Syrian-controlled areas of the Beqa Valley in Lebanon.
I think that Syria can be approached, should be approached in a variety of ways.
It probably has been approached. I'm not privy to these contacts.
But Syria can't have it both ways.
It either is not involved, in which case it cannot claim credit, or it is involved,
in which case it should have released these hostages long ago and should be demanded in the proper channels
to release them immediately and safely.
Ambassador Rajai, what light can you put on that? Who is involved in this instance?
In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
I still believe that the definition of terrorism and the application of this definition is a matter of difference.
Some people believe that the Zionist base, which has occupied Palestine, is a terrorist base.
And those who are attacking Lebanon, whether they are attacking Lebanon in a very sophisticated manner,
from air or from the sea or from air.
And the way they defend themselves might be very conventional or unconventional.
But whatever those people are doing in defense of their homeland and their position should not be accused of terrorism.
I think terrorism... You know that many people believe it is the...
I'm not making an accusation of terrorism.
You have already created an accusation.
I'm just asking what light you can shed in this instance on the question of who holds the American hostages.
I believe that the American hostages are detained in Beirut.
By?
People in Beirut. I don't know them personally.
All right, let me take a break and we'll come back and pursue that same question in just a moment.
We'll continue our discussion then.
I wouldn't be caught dead without my safety belt.
Will you be caught dead without your safety belt?
Each year nearly 50,000 Americans are.
If you don't buckle your belt, maybe someone else will.
Wednesday's late movie at 1 10 a.m. is part one of the mini-series If Tomorrow Comes.
I killed him.
Oh, Armando's gonna be just fine. He didn't hit anything vital.
How do you explain the painting?
I don't want to think about a painting.
Tracy Whitney is sent to prison on trumped-up charges and vows to take revenge on the mobster who sent her there.
I'm investigating a theft.
I didn't take it. They sent me up.
I know.
Miss Whitney, my job is not to judge the merits of your case.
My job is simply to carry out the sentence of the court.
My best advice to you is just to accept it.
Once she is cleared and released, she finds being an ex-con closes all doors for her future.
After discovering she has a knack for thievery, she joins up with Jeff Stevens as they launch a career of high crime.
Don't miss part one of the mini-series If Tomorrow Comes, Wednesday's late movie at 1 10 a.m. here on Channel 8.
Continuing our discussion now with Ambassador Netanyahu and Ambassador Khorasani.
Ambassador Rajai, you mentioned a moment ago that you don't know who these people are that hold the American hostages.
But as you must know, many things are happening in the United States.
And I'm sure you've heard about the American hostages.
Ambassador Rajai, you mentioned a moment ago that you don't know who these people are that hold the American hostages.
But as you must know, many fingers in this country, in effect, point at your country.
That it is believed that a group called Islamic Jihad holds these people.
They, we understand, and we understand very little about them, are Islamic fundamentalists.
And I guess the country that is most associated in American minds with that is yours.
Is there any control over the people who hold our hostages?
I believe that if the American people are made believe that it is the Iranian government or the Muslim,
certain group of Muslims who are somehow affiliated with Iran are detaining these Americans.
And therefore, as you put it, the finger is pointed toward Iran, it is because of you, the media people of this country.
You tell the American people how to think and they follow.
If you tell them other things, they think otherwise.
So for this, we cannot have a different, a better explanation.
The way you present the issue to the American public automatically leads to this sort of thinking.
Therefore, in order to approach the question constructively and correctly,
we have to give the real perspective of the situation.
The real perspective of the situation is that the American interest in the region is being threatened very seriously
by the support that the United States has been rendering to the occupying forces of Palestine.
Those who have occupied Palestine are doing it by the American support.
And therefore, the whole feeling of the region is instigated against the Americans.
And in order to solve the problem is to reconsider your foreign policy. This is the issue.
Charlie, this is Hogwarts.
I was just going to ask you to break it.
If I can make a remark.
Number one, these terrorists who are holding these particular hostages are trying to extract concessions from the government of Kuwait.
Number two, we do know the Syrian government, the Syrian foreign minister who appeared on the show said he knew who these people were.
And he said he knew where they were, which shows a measure of involvement of considerable extent.
Number three, these people tell us, not you, the media tell us who they are.
They themselves tell us who they are.
When they kill Frenchmen and Italians and Americans and bomb the streets of Paris, they unfurl the banner of Khomeini.
They also hate us, Israel, but they have declared a war against the entire Western world and indeed, I would say, against modern times.
So we know who they are by their own admission.
The governments of Iran and the governments of Syria stand behind them.
And I don't think we can kid anyone about that here.
Ambassador Rajai?
I think when some people come that they know it is only an allegation that they really produced.
Have they unfurled the banner of Khomeini or not?
He asked the question, did they not unfurl the banner of Khomeini?
I think I'm invited here to conduct an interview with you.
Well, I'm sorry.
Not with irrelevant people.
I would appreciate if the irrelevant people just...
But he raises a...
Not in trouble.
I think that is not...
If you have a question, I will be prepared to answer.
And the question is...
It is a fair question raised.
Did the individuals involved not invoke the banner in effect of Khomeini?
I think they are...
Oh, they did.
Many of the Muslims in Lebanon are supporters of Khomeini.
They are followers of Khomeini.
It's a fact.
What can you deduce from that?
Well, I think we can deduce a few things.
We can deduce...
I'm addressing myself to the...
Well, I think it's fair for Ambassador Netanyahu to respond to that.
No, I would like you to respond to that because I am supposed to have your interview with you.
I would like you to ask others not to intervene.
That would be more constructive.
Well, let me ask Ambassador Netanyahu as a question.
Would you respond?
I think that we can deduce a great many things.
We can deduce...
First of all, we know of Iran's involvement with terrorism.
Iran is a regime where terrorism is not an incidental activity.
It's a principal export.
Iran is a regime that has held American hostages,
the entire embassy of the United States, hostage for 444 days.
Iran is also a regime that received a hijacked Kuwaiti plane
in which two Americans were murdered.
The hijackers...
This is a year and a half ago, in December of 1984.
The hijackers are taken by the Iranian authorities in a limousine,
and we don't hear from them again.
Now, I asked Ambassador Khorasani,
I asked him actually directly in the Security Council,
I'll ask him indirectly through you on this program, Charlie.
I asked him five months ago,
where are the famous wheels of Iranian justice?
They grind so quickly, they chop heads and hands off
with amazing regularity and speed when perpetrators like that are brought into the courts.
Well, what happened to these people?
We heard nothing. He promised we'll hear about it.
Six months have gone out, which is a year and a half altogether.
We've heard nothing.
I suspect they're counting their cash bonuses in their villas.
So this is... we can deduce a great deal by Iran's record of terrorism internationally,
what we know and what we know under the surface as well.
All right, we're going to take a break for a moment, and we'll be back.
We'll continue our discussion in a moment.
This is my family.
The cutest kids you ever saw.
When they were here, I couldn't stand the noise,
and now that they're gone, I can't stand the quiet.
The place is kind of empty without them.
I don't live here anymore.
I'm all alone.
I'm alone because I used to abuse them.
I didn't mean to hurt them.
I didn't do it because I wanted to.
I'm not a bad person.
I just lost control.
There were frustrations, pressures.
Things were tough.
But it wasn't anything they did. It wasn't their fault.
It was mine.
I really loved them.
It's a terrible thing to lose what you cherish most in your life,
especially when help is available.
Contact your family advocacy representative at your medical treatment facility.
Your Gen. is uniquely qualified to bring you the world.
Continuing our discussion now, Ambassador Rajai,
we have talked a bit today about whether or not you should negotiate.
But what is there to negotiate with Islamic fundamentalists?
Isn't there such a basic anti-Americanism and a basic anti-Israeli feeling
among the Islamic fundamentalists that there really isn't anything to negotiate?
I think there is a very strong feeling of anti-Americanism,
not only in Lebanon but all over the Middle East and in the entire Muslim world.
You are right.
I think the explanation is that since the United States is mistaking its own national interest
with the national interest of the Zionist base which is installed in the Middle East
and which is occupying Palestine illegally,
then this mistake is as a matter of fact the basis of all this antagonism
between the Muslims and the Middle East.
That is one point.
The second point, which must be clear, is that at this particular era,
at this particular moment, what the American people are waiting for
is to hear Father Genco directly.
And I think the whole program now is simply an attempt to divert the attention
of the American people from the message that Father Genco is bringing to them
to irrelevant and I think improper issues.
This is not going to satisfy the need of the American public.
I think the proper thing is to give half an hour's time to Father Genco
so that he can speak to the American public and tell them what he heard,
what he knows, and what he advises them.
I personally feel astonished that the man has come and the entire world wants to listen to him.
You only show his faces hugging this or that and instead the interview is being conducted.
And that will be done, that will be done obviously, when he feels up to it.
Ambassador Netanyahu, let me have you close. We have 30 seconds.
Well, we're all delighted with Father Genco's release and we all pray for the release,
the safe release of the others, but I think we shouldn't be distracted by what Ambassador Hosani said.
There is a race in the Middle East between extremism and moderation.
A great blow was dealt to the forces of extremism and terrorism in the case of Libya.
Now, after your actions, Syria and Iran are scrambling to distort the picture,
to riddle at our resolve, to throw in these hostages, cruelly mistreat them and cynically exploit them.
I think we're on the way to winning the war against terrorism.
We should hold stand fast. I think we'll get to victory too.
All right. Thank you both ever so much for being with us.
Ambassador Rajai and Ambassador Netanyahu, all was interesting. Thank you.
That's our report for tonight. I'm Charles Gibson in Washington.
And for all of us here at ABC News, good night.
This has been ABC News Nightline.
If you wish a printed transcript of this or any Nightline broadcast,
please send three dollars to Nightline Transcripts, 2 John Street, New York, New York, 10038.
Nightline is a presentation of ABC News.