Things are changing. Some of the walls seem to be tumbling down around the Ramses.
Many of their longtime supporters have changed their minds.
When we come back, we'll talk to a former employee for the Ramses who was close to the family at one time,
is now convinced of their guilt.
And we'll talk to one of Patsy's former teachers who still supports this family.
We'll ask her who she believes killed John Bonet right after this.
Applause
The Enquirer has been talking about the latest clues and developments in this case.
Pam, I asked you how your sister felt about the coverage.
You have some strong feelings about Mike Walker, do you not?
Well, certainly not personally. I've never met the gentleman.
But I would like to make a blanket statement about really all of the coverage that has happened.
And that would be that I find it hard to believe that reputable journalists who are professionally trained
and schooled in this country fail to find critical and substantive facts in this case and report on that.
Instead, what I know to be true is so often times a piece or a corner of the table is pulled off
and then an entire story woven around that and the facts are just not true.
Well, the 911 call being digitally enhanced has been verified.
Well, that I cannot speak to. I was not there.
But you know, neither was the gentleman from the National Enquirer.
Oh, well, don't bet on it. But let me just tell you something.
It's not just what we discover and what we say.
You have to remember you just had a detective who made over 250 investigative reports,
Steve Thomas, resign from this case in absolute disgust.
Here's a man who put his career on the line, took up his badge, slammed it down and said,
that's it, I am sick of this district attorney. He is a witness for the defense.
Well, let me... Yes, ma'am.
I believe that we should all be thankful for issues of the Enquirer because certainly the police department
or the family is not very interested in bringing this to justice.
This is a little girl who has long since been gone.
Let me make something clear. Look, I am a journalist, all right?
I mean, the outcome, I would be just as happy to do a story saying, wow, Ramsey's completely innocent.
I would love to do that story, okay? I would love to.
What we feel, all of us, I think, our feeling about what you're saying is that you seem to resent the fact
that people are asking questions about why a little girl is murdered and the parents will not just fully
and freely come forward and answer any question anybody wants to answer.
James Stobie, you worked with this family.
You are more convinced than ever, you say, of their involvement? Yes.
Tell me why. Part of it is a lot of the information that is coming out in the media,
and also there are things that aren't happening. It's like they talk about another suspect and no one's been identified.
And I think it's the silence on the part of the family, the lack of cooperation on the part of the family.
Well, we've heard that the suspect may be someone who was jealous. Now, Pam, tell me if I'm misspeaking. Jealous of...
Well, and again, you're looking at James Stobie, who at one point was an employee of the company, is no longer...
I have never met the lady. I've never laid eyes on her.
I do know that some of the things that she has second-handedly reported, such as naked photographs of Jean Benet above her bed at the lake house,
it is a falsehood. I have spent many a night in that house.
I was there when the pictures of the Victorian umbrellas were hung above Jean Benet's bed.
And so there you have people, she even just admitted that she's relying on printed media and whatever's been out there
to determine what is and isn't going on, when the fact of the matter is there is a very short list of suspects.
They are being looked at. The information and the evidence is being tied and neatly woven together,
and all avenues are being, as the justice system would relegate, all avenues are being searched.
Jane, in response to the profile of the suspects being someone jealous of the Ramses, their success, their closeness as a family.
I found this really interesting because when I was working with the family, one of the things that her mother talked about
is how people were so jealous of them. And I just, it was so interesting, Pam, when I heard you on the phone,
or heard a clip on the news from what you had said that it was because people were jealous of the family, etc., etc.,
and it's like, I heard this years ago, and now it's back again. And I think, well, it's a, Pam, people are turning, it seems, on the family.
Some very important people who've been close supporters for many, many months, including Fleet White, and Priscilla Brown White,
where Patsy and John had dinner that Christmas Eve. He was with John Ramsey when the body was found.
He wrote an open letter and said, the people of Colorado are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials
and other persons who have brought this case to its current status. We must be mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigation's failure,
the refusal of John and Patsy Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with the responsibility of investigating the death of their daughter.
Pam, was this hurtful? This open letter of key people in the Ramsey camp turning, was that hurtful to Patsy and John?
First of all, let me say this. Fleet White, I have not laid eyes on since the day of Jean Bonnet's funeral, December 31st, here in Atlanta.
I have not laid eyes on the man, and I have been back in Boulder and Denver several times since then. So he has not bothered to contact me or my family.
He certainly has a right to his own opinion. I have not read the letter that he has written. I have heard some people have said it's way out there,
and other people have said, right on, you know, it substantiates the entire feeling of the state of Colorado.
Well, it does reflect a lot of frustration and concern that nothing is moving forward. But now that the grand jury is convening secretly,
we know that something is up. And we've already heard from the experts who've analyzed the famous ransom note, every which way but loose.
But there's a new way of looking at it now. What do the words reveal?
Still to come, a well-known psychiatrist will read between the lines to uncover what he says are subliminal messages from John Bonnet's killer.
Some shocking conclusions, and we'll see you back here.
She gave an interview to the Sentinel, a West Virginia newspaper, and in it she says,
you can only turn the other cheek for so long, it's not fair. We want people to know the type of parents we are.
Jerrolyn Merritt, defense attorney, you say you're on the side of truth in this thing, but let's start with this comment, type of parents we are.
I know the type of parent I think I would be, if anything happened to my kid. I know I would be all over the police, what can I tell you?
Do you want to interview my dog? Do you want to put me under hypnosis? Do you want to analyze my footprints, anything to get to the truth?
And I think that's where we first began and where we're still stuck with this sentiment about the Ramses.
Okay, sure. First of all, I'm not so sure, I wouldn't say I'm on the side of truth, although that would be nice. My client, if I have a client in this, is the presumption of innocence.
I don't know who killed this child, I don't think anyone else did either.
Now, that being said, it is another one of the media myths that the Ramses did not cooperate.
They were both interviewed on the 26th, one was interviewed on the 27th. They gave hair samples, saliva samples, they gave blood samples.
But they had so good conditions for those interviews.
No, wait a second, not those original interviews they did not. Their child was initially interviewed on that day.
He was later interviewed by social services with the police watching through a one-way mirror and able to suggest questions.
They gave consents to search all of their homes.
Last month or within the last two months, they were interviewed for over 40 hours by the district attorney's office on videotape.
With their lawyers present, there was not a single question they refused to answer. There was not a single topic they refused to discuss.
Their child was also again interviewed.
The reason they stopped cooperating early on was because, as the district attorney agreed, the police in this case rushed to judgment early on,
would not look elsewhere, would only investigate the Ramses.
Once the police set their sights on the Ramses, they naturally had lawyers who said, let's slow down here and see what's going on.
Well, what about this 911 call? It indicates, if nothing else, that the Ramses lied to the investigators.
Why would they lie about Burke being asleep?
You're making a rather large assumption here.
Number one, how do we know about a 911 call? Have the police confirmed it?
What we know is that there's another example here of a police leak of information.
Mike, is that true?
Many of them have been false.
The Newsweek reported this week that over 15 people that listened to that tape did not hear anything of Burke Ramsey on that tape.
And we don't know if the tape exists, and we don't know what's on it.
And I would be the last one to want to speculate as to what it means.
I will say this, the words that are on there are also equally indicative of innocence, of showing Patsy Ramsey just absolutely saying,
oh my God, what now, what to do, she is frantic.
You can take that either way, but I would caution anyone against speculating on evidence that comes out, not in the courtroom, but in the court of public opinion.
You can't have it both ways. If it's indicative of Patsy's innocence, okay, then you're admitting the tape exists.
And it is indicative that they lied about Burke being awake. Okay, well it's good page, they're liars.
No, first of all, sir, you were not present at the 42 hours of interviews. You do not know what the Ramses told the police.
You are relying upon leaks by police officers, many of whom have since been fired from the investigation.
As do many journalists and police investigators, relying on leaks, lady.
There's another book out, not surprisingly, Jean Benet's Mother, The Tragedy and the Truth.
It's written by Linda Edison McLean. She is a longtime friend of the Ramses. She wrote this book.
You've been listening, right? Right.
What's your reaction to what you've heard so far and why you wrote this book?
Lisa, the reason that I wrote this book is exactly what's happening on your show right now.
I hear audience members clapping when people say things about my friend that are not true that they don't know.
And I think what's wrong in America today is that we tend to take innocent people and attack them and destroy them.
And we did it with Richard Jewell in Atlanta. We've done it with other people.
And we have got to stop, Lisa. We have got to stop using the media to destroy innocent people.
And that's why we wrote this book, because we're too...
Here we are on the phone, because I don't want to come out there and sit on those shows.
I'm nervous. I'm just a normal small-town person.
And I wanted to write down what I knew about Patsy and all of these friends and family members
who know how wonderful she is. We just wanted to say that. That's all this book's about.
I just want to address the fact that this happened the night after Christmas.
And being a parent yourself, Lisa, I think you would know where your children are on a family holiday.
I cannot believe that she couldn't find her six-year-old daughter. She didn't know where she was.
Linda, well, she says she was kidnapped. That was the whole point.
Yes, she just got a ransom note that said she was kidnapped.
And yes, I have children, and I know how I would feel.
And I would run around frantic, and I wouldn't remember every detail of everything that happened.
Did you wake up your child and ask what had happened to his sister?
Sir, I don't know what happened.
Linda, can you please stand by? We have so many questions for you.
We also want to know about Patsy's frame of mind right now.
Obviously, she feels a need to speak out, and we're glad that we're hearing from this side of the story.
Also, a controversial point of view from a respected psychologist who believes that the words of that ransom note all do point to Patsy Ramsey.
We'll be right back.
Dr. Scholl's next interest, who's written this book called A Mother Gone Bad,
and he claims that the ransom note shows us that it was a woman, that it was a woman who had cancer, and that it was, in fact, the mom.
How on earth, you're sort of reading between the lines, psycholinguistics, is it called?
I am reading between the lines, yes.
Okay, let's get the theory in a minute. First, tell us what you see that indicates this woman had cancer.
I picked up the ransom note as a hobby, just looking at it to see what was between the lines, so I didn't really know anything about the case.
I just came at it perfectly neutral. This is the best evidence we have about the case, Robert Ressler and others agree.
You can't really contaminate this evidence, but this is what I saw.
There's a particularly brutal part of the letter here, she dies, she dies, she dies, and then a key sentence.
You will be scanned for electronic devices, and if any are found, she dies.
Read that. You will be scanned for any defects, and if we find any, she dies.
That is a perfect picture of a cancer patient going in for checkups.
Now, Patsy Ramsey was a cancer survivor, fourth stage ovarian cancer.
And every three months she had to be scanned with a scanner, and it was going to tell if she had cancer, recurrence or not.
Now, what you see following that is you want to look for other images of cancer.
Let's see where the letter leads us. What you see is a 99% chance of killing your daughter, survival percentages, 100% chance.
Survival percentages, what we see here is constant scrutiny. Medical words.
Over here, we will monitor you getting the money early. Somebody being monitored early. That's what scanning was about.
That is odd terminology, monitor you getting the money early.
It is.
Jerrolyn, of course, thinks that this is all bogus.
Of course.
Well, you know, I think this book belongs on the fiction shelves, not the non-fiction shelves, but also these same words have to do with, you know,
you're talking about electronic monitoring, scanning. How about somebody in prison?
How about somebody that is used to electronic gates and wearing electronic monitoring bracelets?
Mike, you know, and how many people have cancer?
Not being the doctor of anything, but let me just point out something that has always intrigued me.
Up there it says, we represent a small foreign faction.
Later on in the letter, perhaps you could point it out, sir, it says, use your good southern common sense.
That is a phrase that Patsy Ramsey, according to friends that we spoke to, used over and over again.
Abu Ben-Abi of the Islamic Jihad does not use language like that.
You say there are words, doctor, that are used throughout this note that indicate it was authored by a woman.
Remember, we're looking for a motive, and we want to know how could a nice person like Patsy Ramsey commit this crime
being burdened by the terror of cancer is one reason, but we also see here a preoccupation.
Delivery, and notice here, delivery is crossed out.
This is a picture of Patsy Ramsey's devastation by cancer, her delivery, her ability to give birth as a woman was crossed out.
I think she's showing us this. Now if we look at other images, and we could go into how this is a woman's handwriting.
This has a woman's tone to it, two gentlemen, proper burial, but we'll see there's a symbol of a woman, a valuable container.
Now what we see here is the bike. Something's being withdrawn out of a bike.
This moves down to a bike account. It comes down to an attache. It then comes down to a brown paper bag.
All of these are symbols of a woman, a nest egg, the uterus within. Patsy Ramsey's uterus within had been withdrawn.
That's what she's trying to tell us, and I think she's trying to say, listen, I was a damaged woman.
You have two central thoughts, a damaged woman, woman damaged by cancer, and you have cancer.
And so this is telling you that whoever the killer is, it's a woman who is severely damaged probably by cancer.
Now that's where the letter leads, right there. There's another point that what happened that night, but that's the motive.
Okay, let's talk about the point about what happened that night.
Also the doctor says that there were clues throughout Patsy Ramsey's writings that indicated this moment was coming.
It was a boiling point, that something in her subconscious knew that she would harm her child.
Fascinating to me. We'll take a quick break.
And coming up, this investigation does go before a secret grand jury.
Any day now are we getting closer to the truth? We'll be right back with you.
Ransom note. Let's just have you guys jump in and rattle on. And doctor, your other points, we want to get to those.
But first some questions.
I want to know, what about the allegations of sexual abuse?
Supposedly this young lady was, young girl, excuse me, was sexually abused over a period of time.
And you mean that no, the parents didn't know?
Is there any indication of that in the note?
You know, there is. We've just gone over, there are two motives in a crime.
A deep pain the killer's carrying around and a trigger motive.
Now something in this case, if Patsy Ramsey is the murderer of this child, something powerful had to happen that night.
Something powerful happened anyway, but we've seen two things.
Well, let me just interject here. There's been speculation, and we were talking about it during the break,
that Patsy Ramsey walked in on John Ramsey perhaps molesting the child.
Instead of going after the husband, which may seem the common thing to do,
perhaps the speculation is that Patsy's jealousy of her daughter was so great that that was the option that she took.
Liz, I think this is where, this is where she lost control.
And I think she shows us this in the letter. Just a couple of things.
Interesting things. A small foreign faction. We represent a small foreign faction.
What is John Bonet? But a small foreign entity.
We go down here with Attaché, accent on the seventh letter. John Bonet is the accent with the seventh letter.
Attaché and John Bonet, just some interesting parallels.
But the last night, notice here, if you stand back from the letter and you say, where is the chaos in this letter?
Where do you see the writer showing you a moment of chaos? You would go right here to delivery.
Now notice what else you see. You see a period totally out of place. I call that a psychotic period.
This is telling us when she lost it. Now notice what the word is next to it.
Delivery is crossed out. John Bonet is turned into a pickup.
Pickup being made into one word, not two. One word. It's another slip.
And I think she's saying, this is the moment I lost control. I think Patsy Ramsey went over the edge.
When she saw John Bonet as what? Competition?
Being sexually abused. I think that she stepped into something about sexual abuse was going on.
I think that's when she lost it. I think that's in the letter.
But if you'll notice, immediate execution of your daughter immediately follows that.
That's when she lost control. And I think that was the trigger motive.
Two motives. Trigger motive, deeper motive. And that was the trigger.
Are people taking your analysis seriously?
Well, my colleagues are. My colleagues who understand how the mind works,
and there's been a breakthrough in how the mind works, we all have this genius subliminal mind.
And the mind picks up on clues and it tells us things indirectly through patterned stories.
Linda, are you still standing by? Have you heard what the doctor has said?
I have.
You must have an opinion.
Well, you know, I watch people who analyze their body language.
I watch experts who talk about an autopsy they've never seen.
I hear a man talking about Attaché and John Bonet.
It hurts me so bad when people, in my opinion, make these things up
and dig these things up about somebody that I know with every ounce of my being is a wonderful, wonderful person.
Is the FBI profiling unit a unit that just makes things up?
Of course there are things that human behavior is doing.
The FBI profiling unit has not come out and said that John Bonet was ever sexually abused before the night of the murder.
In fact, the pediatrician has said that there was no prior sexual abuse and no one has found prior sexual abuse on this child.
The same pediatrician who examined her vaginally at least four times, which other experts say is abnormal for a child that age.
All right, Linda, let's let's take a break. We'll come back. We'll talk about this.
They also said John Bonet was soiling herself in the months preceding the murder.
Did you know your friend to be someone who could reach a point and just snap Linda?
A lot of questions still ahead. We'll be right back.
Truth is on the phone.
I was just curious if you've asked Patsy who she thinks killed her daughter.
No, I haven't. I really haven't.
Why haven't you?
No one's asking the key questions.
Her sister didn't ask her either. Why haven't you? If you're such a good friend, why didn't you ask her?
I think that probably the detectives and police and DA have asked her that.
We don't talk about it because it is so painful.
One time I said to her sitting on her back.
Linda, do you you've you've known Patsy over a number of years.
You know, there's a theory that maybe she just lost it, went temporarily insane, according to psychiatrists and snapped.
Does that seem reasonable to you that that could happen?
OK, we've known her. I've known her for 25 years.
People write in this book who have known her for every year of her life.
And yet you're telling me for one night, not just Patsy, but John, both of them became insane on one night of their life.
Never before, never after have they shown any tendency to do this.
But one night they both snapped suddenly and became insane.
I mean, no, no. If you read this, these people know her, they know them, and they know that couldn't have happened.
And Dr. Hodges says Dr. Hodges says that not only in his view did it happen, but that there was an indication that it was going to happen.
What in Patsy Ramsey's prior communications indicate to you that she knew a moment of truth would evolve in her life regarding her daughter and potential harm?
I think you have to look at her other letters and you have to match to the thought prints match.
And we would look at her ninety six Christmas letter. We see the same preoccupation with femininity, damaged femininity.
And in that Christmas letter, she talks about being replaced or she hints at being replaced.
She talks about, again, a container, a boat. John Ramsey has a real love.
John Ramsey has a new old looking boat. Read young old looking boat. A young woman made up to look old.
I think she's picking up that there was something going on with John and John Benet and this led to an explosion.
And if you read the letter, I think it's quite striking. There's no question in my mind that she knew.
In Caprisis, the child was soiling her pants. There was tension rising in the home.
John Benet was picking up on it.
The lady on the phone seems to think it's odd that, you know, they would just snap all of a sudden.
I mean, people snap. I mean, look at the people that kill kids just come into a school with a gun. I mean, they snapped.
Well, if there's a big family secret that they're keeping, like something like molestation, which I know, Jerrolyn, has never been proven.
But if there's a secret like that, if Burke has a secret like that, if Patsy's holding that over John's head and John's holding the murder over Patsy's head,
just going with what the speculation is, that's a lot of psychological burden.
We found him with three witnesses at a porn shop in Denver three weeks after the murder.
Not true. And the District Attorney of Boulder has filed a motion to unseal a search warrant on Napa David saying they have found zero evidence of John Ramsey's link to pornography.
And Linda Hoffman, too, the housekeeper on the record, said that Patsy had told her over and over again
that she did not enjoy sex, asked her if she could find books that would help her in this.
There were things going on in that house that they're examining.
A lot of questions out here. I'll get to them right after the break. Give me a couple minutes.
On the telephone and just to everyone in general, I don't care how long you know someone, 25, 30 years.
I don't care how many books have been written. It seems like most people are capitalizing on this poor child's death.
I don't see any love between those two people. Every segment that I've seen on TV, they're not hugging each other.
They're not consoling each other. No one's crying.
It seems like there's no love in this family and that it's falling apart.
And as far as that letter is concerned, to me, it makes no sense that a person that wants money wouldn't ask for such a small amount and they wouldn't write such a long letter.
None of this makes any sense to me.
Let me go first to Linda about the affection question.
You know, we've applied a lot of our need to see the Ramses in a certain way.
We want them to grieve a particular way. We want them to be affectionate in a way that makes us feel like they're not guilty.
Now, none of that is really our right, but it is sort of the public opinion that we haven't seen that.
What have you seen about your friends with affection?
Well, they are affectionate, Lisa. I have seen Patsy cry and sob. We have sobbed together because we've both lost people.
Whether they do it publicly or not, I don't know, but I know they do it in private.
They're real people. They're good people. And I don't know how else to say it.
You know, obviously everybody there has made up their mind, and all I can tell you is I know the truth. I pray that someday you will, too.
That is not true. What we are asking for, if it was me, if it was Lisa, or if it was you, lady, we would have been indicted by now.
At least an indictment, and let's examine the others.
There has been no indictment now. There has been no indictment, first of all, because the police and the district attorney have both come out and said there is insufficient evidence which to charge anyone with a crime.
But if there's a grand jury now, doesn't that indicate that something's moving and grooving?
No. The reason that there is, first of all, in Colorado, grand juries are used for investigatory purposes, not necessarily to charge.
If there are witnesses who refuse to come forward voluntarily, a grand jury can subpoena them and compel them to testify.
For example, Fleet White is one of the people who is going to receive a subpoena or receive one because he will, has refused to be interviewed by the district attorney's office.
There are other people like that. That is the reason to have a grand jury, but it does not mean that anyone will ever be charged in this case.
That's right. Once she's really telling you the truth, this could be a total whitewash.
Got to go. Right back.
Progedy. Thank you, everybody. Yes, sir.
You know, what everybody's struggling with is facing Patsy Ramsey's shadow side, which everyone has. We see the motives, terror, envy, fear.
And, you know, Patsy Ramsey was a burdened woman, and she wants us to know it from this letter. Imagine a mother who loves her child, the most surprised woman in America.
Her child is unconscious before her. You get her help or not, their life is ruined at that moment in time.
Then what happens? We see at the crime scene, the final crime scene, a mother who loves her child, a blanket, a drawing in the palm of the left hand, I love you, and the nightgown.
These parents love their children, and they're surprised.