to live in the Soviet Union?
Yes, she told me that he wanted her to go back.
And during your contact with Marina, did you discern that she did not want to go back, that she liked America, wanted to stay here?
She wanted to stay here very much. She did not want to go back to the Soviet Union.
In April of 63, did Mr. Oswald leave for New Orleans to find work?
Yes, he'd lost his job when he went.
And did Marina stay with you pending her husband's getting settled in New Orleans and calling for her to join him there?
Yes, that's right. I suggested that she stay at my house until he could call after he'd found work.
Did you drive Marina and her daughter to New Orleans to live with Mr. Oswald?
Yes, after he called.
In July of 63, did Marina write you a letter from New Orleans informing you that it looked like she was going to have to go back to Russia?
Yes, that's when I actually wrote a letter saying that she could stay with me if she wanted to.
Did Marina in fact come to live with you?
Yes, she did.
Was that in September of 1963?
Yes.
Did you drive to New Orleans to pick Marina up?
Yes.
When you arrived in New Orleans, did you learn or did Mr. Oswald tell you about his political activity in New Orleans?
Yes, he said he'd been passing out leaflets, pro-Castro leaflets, and some anti-Castro people had caused a disturbance, and he'd spent a night in jail.
So Oswald remained in New Orleans and you brought Marina and June, the daughter, back to live with you in Irving?
That's right.
Did Marina join him when he returned to Dallas or did she continue to stay with you?
No, she stayed on.
The plan was for her to stay at least until their second baby was born and she could gather her strength, and then she would join him.
Mrs. Payne, I believe you had something to do with Mr. Oswald beginning to work at the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Would you tell the jury about that, please?
Sure. Marina and I were having coffee with the next door neighbor about a week after Lee had come back to the area and he had trouble all that week trying to get work.
And another neighbor who was there said that her brother was working at the Texas School Book Depository and he had mentioned that they may have more openings there.
So I called the school book depository and talked with the personnel director there and he didn't say whether there was an opening, but he said that the young man I mentioned to him should apply in person.
And I told Lee that when he called at the house.
And I guess he did apply the next day and got the job.
He was quite elated about that.
Okay, now between mid-October 1963 and November the 22nd, 1963, the day of the assassination, would Mr. Oswald visit his wife Marina at your home?
Yes, he'd come out on weekends regularly.
Did he ever deviate from that pattern?
Well, just the weekend prior to the assassination, he did not come out.
But whenever he did come out to visit Marina, it was always invariably, without exception, Friday night and then he'd go back Monday morning, is that correct?
After his working, yes.
Mrs. Payne, on Thursday, November the 21st, 1963, did anything unusual happen with respect to Mr. Oswald?
Well, yes, he came out that night and it was the first night he'd come out on a weeknight and it was the first time he'd ever come without asking permission.
And you were surprised?
I was very surprised, yes.
Was Marina a little embarrassed and surprised?
She was, yes.
She said to me, she apologized for not asking whether he could come and she expressed her surprise.
To the best of your recollection, when did you first see him that Thursday evening?
I saw him, it was about 5.30 in the evening.
I had just gotten back from grocery shopping and he was already there.
They were on the front lawn talking when I arrived.
Okay.
Do you recall saying anything to him as you entered the home?
Yes.
What did you say to him?
I said, our president is coming and I was very excited about it.
He didn't really reply, sort of brushed on by and said, oh yeah, this was in Russian.
He said, da or what?
Yeah.
Would you please relate to the jury what took place thereafter that evening?
Well, we had dinner as usual and then I washed up the dishes and my usual routine was to put my children to bed, reading them stories and so on.
And took most of the evening doing that.
Around 9 p.m. do you recall what you did?
Yes, at 9 when my children were tucked in for the evening, I went into the garage to paint some blocks that I had made for my children.
When you entered your garage around 9 p.m. did you notice anything unusual?
Yes, the overhead light was on when I went in.
And you hadn't been in the garage earlier that evening?
No, I had not.
Were you under the impression that either Marina or Mr. Oswald had left the light on?
That seriously it could have been Marina.
She was very good at turning out the lights if she ever went in there.
And then I could hear her moving about.
I knew where she was during the evening.
So as I walked into the garage and found the light on, it was my clear impression that Oswald had been there and left it on carelessly.
But you did not physically see him enter the garage?
No, I did not.
There has been testimony at this trial from Mr. Frazier that Mr. Oswald told him that the reason he came to your home that Thursday night was to get some curtain rods from you.
For his room on Beckley Street. While he was at your home did he ask you for any curtain rods?
No, he didn't.
Did he ever at any time ask you for curtain rods?
No.
Was there any discussion between you and him or you and Marina about curtain rods?
No.
But you in fact did have some curtain rods in the garage, is that correct?
In the garage, yes.
After the assassination they were still there?
Yes, that's right.
Mrs. Payne, at noon hour on Friday, November the 22nd, 1963, the day of the assassination, were you at your home?
Yes.
Did you become aware during the noon hour that the President had been shot?
Yes, it was announced on television that he had been shot.
What did the announcement say?
Well, just that he'd been shot and then a little bit after that they said that they thought the shots had been fired from the Texas Schoolbook Depository.
Although you knew that Mr. Oswald worked in the Texas Schoolbook Depository building, you didn't suspect him at that point?
No, I didn't. No.
What is the next thing that happened pertaining to the assassination?
Well, the next thing they announced on the television that the President had died and very shortly after that there were six officers that came to my front door from the Sheriff's Department and Dallas Police Department.
They wanted to come in.
They wanted to search the home?
Yes, they did.
Did they eventually search the garage?
Yes, they went pretty immediately to the garage.
While in the garage, did the officers ask you if Oswald had any guns or weapons?
One of the officers asked if he had any guns and I said no.
And then I translated the question to Marina who said yes, that he had a gun and she indicated a blanket roll on the floor in the garage pointed to it.
When Marina pointed to the blanket in your presence, did the officers check to see if the rifle was still in the blanket?
Yes, he picked it up and it bent over his arm limp like a rag. It was clearly empty.
Did Marina move out of your home after the assassination, ma'am?
Yes, she did.
Mrs. Payne, did Oswald leave his wedding ring behind for Marina on the morning of the assassination?
Well, a few days after the assassination, two men from the FBI came out saying that Marina wanted his wedding ring and I didn't know just where to look but we looked in the bedroom and found it in a teacup there on the dresser.
Did the thought occur to you that is leaving the wedding ring behind with Marina on this occasion may have been in the nature of a farewell?
Well, yes, it occurred to me that he may have felt she wouldn't see him again.
Mrs. Payne, would you briefly describe how the Oswalds got along with each other?
Well, they were very important to each other and they cared about each other but they fought a lot. They bickered and argued.
Mrs. Payne, am I correct in saying that you feel you got to know Lee Harvey Oswald fairly well?
Yes, I really think so. I really think that Marina is the only one who knew him well but I saw him a lot during those two months before the assassination and no doubt saw him more than any other individual and he was at home there.
He was comfortable. I feel I got a good picture of what he was like.
You even tried to teach him how to drive a car, is that right?
Yes, I did. We had several lessons.
In all the time you knew Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see Mr. Oswald have any kind of a relationship with anyone other than Marina?
No, I didn't, no.
Did he ever receive any telephone calls at your home of a mysterious nature?
No, he never received any calls of any nature.
So you're not aware of any contacts he had with anyone?
No.
Were you able to discern how Lee Harvey Oswald viewed the world about him?
I think he saw the world as hostile and he really had very little good to say about other people.
Were you able to discern how Oswald viewed himself?
I think he had kind of an inflated...
Well, these are such, you know...
Rule 701 questions, Your Honor.
I don't care whether it's rule 1957.
Your Honor...
I'm going to sustain as to what he himself felt. You can give your observations, Ms. Payne.
As to what he felt?
No. What you saw and observed, you can't tell what he felt.
Oh, right, right.
If you weren't in his body, you don't know what he felt. Understand?
Yeah.
Okay. Thank you.
Well, were you able to discern how Oswald viewed himself?
That's the same question?
No, it's a different question, Your Honor.
I could see...
I sustain...
I think I could...
Please, just a minute.
Yeah.
See, the judge sustained it. That means you can't answer...
I know you didn't realize that, but that means you can't answer the question.
Why don't I just say how he spoke?
Well, all right. Sure, you can tell how he spoke.
I think you've already figured it out, Ms. Payne.
How did he speak?
Judge, you can't expect me to figure it out. I'm only the lawyer in this case, so...
He spoke with derision about other people, and proud of himself and his ability.
All right.
Do you feel he wanted to be recognized as a great man someday?
I think he thought he was pretty special and that others did not see him that way,
but that he thought that others might in some time.
Do you feel he was a reliable person, someone upon whom one could depend?
I was disturbed that he didn't really support his wife.
He was certainly not doing things that would help her or be a person that she could count on.
I was worried because he seemed very touchy, very apt to take offense if you disagreed with him.
And I've said, I think, that I was concerned at first.
I was worried about even asking Marina to come and stay with me because I felt he might take offense at that.
Thank you very much, Mrs. Payne.
You're a witness, Mr. Spence. You may cross-examine.
Mrs. Payne, of course my client, Lee, can't defend himself. You understand that?
Yes.
You understand that you can say what appeared to me, what sounded to me,
to be unkind things about Mr. Oswald, and he can't say anything back.
You understand this, don't you?
Go ahead.
Let me ask you, what do you think Lee might have said in defense of himself, since you know him?
You know him well, better than anybody, if you had accused him of being unreliable.
What do you think he would have said?
Mr. Spence, I can understand your feeling.
No, please. I'm just asking a question. I'm entitled to an answer.
This is cross-examination, Mrs. Payne. What do you think he would have said?
If you had accused him face to face of being unreliable, what do you think he would have said?
I think he would have bristled and probably not said anything.
What do you think Lee might have said in defense of himself if you had said to him,
I don't think you support your wife very well?
Well, he probably would have said he doesn't have any money now.
Do you think he might have said, I do as best as well as I can,
and would he have said to you, and I certainly appreciate your making your home available?
I did not hear that from him at any point, but I think in nonverbal ways,
it was clear to me he appreciated her being there just at that time when the baby was due.
What do you think he would have said had you said that you thought he was unkind to his family?
I think he would have seen me as an enemy if I said that.
Now that's really the truth, isn't it, Mrs. Payne? You didn't like him very well, did you?
Didn't like him very well. I wasn't trying to hurt him, though.
I say you didn't like him very well.
No, I didn't like him very well.
As a matter of fact, you were having trouble with your own husband at the time, weren't you?
We were separated, planning to get a divorce.
At the time, you were separated and getting a divorce, and Lee and his wife were having trouble, isn't that right?
Yes.
And would it be fair to say that you saw this more from your standpoint and Mrs. Oswald's standpoint than from Lee's?
Certainly I heard more from Marina about how her marriage was than I ever heard from Lee.
Now, I'd like to, you don't mind if I ask you some personal questions about your interest in Russia, do you?
No.
You, of course, are not an agent for the CIA, are you?
No.
No, you see you laugh.
Yes, I do.
You are not an agent for the KGB, are you?
No.
Are you laughing again?
Well, you ridiculed me for laughing, so I won't do it again.
No, I don't mean to ridicule you for it. I just want to know if you find the inquiry amusing.
No.
You studied Russian?
Yes.
When did you first begin to study Russian?
I think it was around 1957. I had been working with a young Quaker group that was interested in cultural exchange.
Yes, it just happened, just a coincidence that you chose Russian as a language of your interest?
No, it wasn't a coincidence at all. I'm telling you that's because I felt it was really important to communicate between our countries in particular.
This was the era of the Cold War.
Well, okay. It just is a coincidence that you befriended the wife of the man who was later charged with the murder of our president.
That's all a coincidence too, isn't it?
Well.
Yes. And is it a coincidence that it was you, Mrs. Payne?
Yes.
Yes? Who directed Lee to the job that put him in the Texas schoolbook depository?
Yes, I think that was clearly a coincidence.
And it's just a coincidence that the gun that supposedly killed the president was located in your house?
That's a coincidence, isn't it?
What do you mean coincidence?
I mean it just happened. It's just all of these things just sort of happened all around you. That's a coincidence.
You did give the FBI a letter that was supposed to have been written by Lee to the Soviet embassy, didn't you?
This was a draft of a letter that he left on my desk that concerned me very deeply because I could see he was lying in it.
And he used my typewriter and that offended me deeply.
He left, it offended you that he lied on your typewriter?
That he had been lying on my typewriter, that's right. I didn't know who he was writing. The letter just said, Dear Sirs.
And he left it right there for you to see?
He left it on my desk. I don't know why he left it there. It seemed just as strange as his leaving the light on in the garage.
Well, now let it, wait a minute. We'll get to the light in the garage in just a minute.
Now, Mrs. Payne, I want to tell you something. I've talked to you about mere coincidences.
Yes, no. Guilt by association.
Yes, you can see how when I place questions to you like this that people can come to conclusions that you feel are wrong about.
That's true. They could.
You can understand, I think now, how Lee would feel if he were here to defend himself
and heard you make the statements that you made about him that he couldn't answer in any way
after you had known him only really a very few days. Do you understand that now?
To talk to what you're talking about and what he might have felt or what kind of person he was,
I do think for the historical record it's important that people understand that Lee was a very ordinary person.
That people can kill a president without that being something that shows on them in advance.
Let me ask you a question. Is it really your purpose here to try to defame this man in some way?
I'd like a full picture. I think it's really important for history that a full picture of the man be seen.
Thank you. Now, you never saw Lee in the garage, did you?
Pardon?
You never saw Lee in the garage, did you?
Not that evening, no.
And when you say he left the light on, that's simply a surmise on your part, isn't it?
Isn't it, please?
Yes, I knew it wasn't myself and I didn't think it was Marina.
And if...
Now, relative to the garage, anybody else with minimal burglar skills could have got in your garage, isn't that true?
I thought we would have heard them.
And you were at another part of the house, weren't you?
In the bedroom.
And you don't know... First of all, let's find out what you do know and what you've surmised and what you don't know and what you've guessed at.
First of all, you do not know that there was ever a gun in that house, do you?
I never saw one, that's true.
You don't know that Lee Oswald or anybody else took a gun from that house, do you?
Not from my own observation, no.
You don't know that Lee turned on that light, do you?
It's just my surmise, you're right.
Thank you.
Now...
A wedding ring was left behind.
Yes.
Sometimes that's done when couples are about to split the blanket, isn't it?
Yeah.
Sometimes people, when they're finished, if they're having a fight with each other, they say...
This is it, baby.
That happens sometimes, doesn't it?
It could, yes.
Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to kill the President, does it?
No.
Mrs. Payne, you're aware of the fact that you talked to Lee after he was in jail, didn't you?
On the phone twice.
And he was asking for help, wasn't he?
He asked me to call a particular lawyer and he gave me a phone number.
Yes, he needed somebody to give him assistance.
Right.
Did you think he should have it?
Yes, I thought he should have defense, a lawyer.
And were you amazed at the fact about how completely certain Lee was as to his innocence?
Well, it wasn't that he said he was innocent.
It was that it seemed remarkable to me that he could just ask blandly something of me at that point.
It seemed remarkable that he should ask you to call a lawyer for him?
Didn't you tell the Warren Commission that you were impressed how calm Lee was and how completely certain,
how completely certain Lee was of his innocence?
Why don't you read that?
Read that, exactly.
Yes, I will.
To express considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will.
Yes.
But I did say I would make the call for him.
Did you make the call?
Yes, I tried to.
And did he seem so presuming of his own innocence?
He seemed so apart from the whole event, like it was nothing, like nothing had happened.
And that was the presumption that I felt in his voice, like, you know, nothing's happened.
But he seemed presuming of his own innocence, did he not?
He seemed unattached.
Do you see any reason why you just can't turn to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and say to them in clean, clear, honest English,
he seemed presuming of his own innocence?
That's true, isn't it?
That does not give the meaning that this whole passage you've quoted gives.
Because what I was saying was that he was unattached to the events that had just happened.
That's the way he seemed to me.
He seemed calm?
Yes.
He seemed confident?
Well, I wouldn't say that, no.
In fact, he was irritated in the evening when he called and wanted to talk to Marina, and she wasn't there.
She wasn't there.
Think a man in jail charged with the assassination of the president, who was innocent, who couldn't get out of jail,
and who had been beaten by the police and wanted to see his wife, might show a little irritation.
Thank you, Mrs. Payne.
Thank you very much, Mrs. Payne. You may step down.