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Tonight, tough times for Benjamin Netanyahu.
The Israeli Prime Minister joins us to discuss the latest on Iraq, the stalled Middle East peace process, his relationship with American Jews, and a lot more.
Barry Sheck, attorney for Au Pair Louise Woodward. Call next on Larry King Live.
We begin tonight with an old friend who's managed to fit us into his very busy schedule.
He's in Los Angeles at the current moment, although he's hopping around somewhere later.
He's the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. What about this sudden trip to London tonight that was not on your itinerary?
Well, I'm flying back to Israel and I'm stopping for a fueling stop.
It's more than that though, isn't it?
Well, I may have one or two meetings then.
Is it true that one of the meetings is with King Hussein?
I'll have one or two meetings and then I'll tell you about it.
Is this a trip of importance?
Look, we're obviously in heady times now, or at least difficult times.
I think that one of the things that we're concerned with is the potential developments in our region with Saddam Hussein's renewed aggression,
his willingness to flaunt or to flout all inspections that are put before him and to proceed to develop weapons of mass destruction.
That obviously is of concern to us and I suppose all the leaders of the Middle East.
So this is a backdrop, I suppose, for some of the things that concern us now.
Hypothetically, if it were King Hussein or someone in that vein, is it about someone talking to Iraq?
Well, I don't want to engage in hypotheticals and whenever I meet an Arab leader, be it the leaders of Egypt or Jordan or the Palestinians,
we first of all have bilateral relations between us and we always end up discussing the region in the larger context.
I suppose that if you're thinking about hypotheticals, this would fall into one of those hypotheticals.
Well answered. I know that tonight is that big party for Kirk Douglas and you're there to honor him,
but you were supposed to speak to some influential Jewish business leaders tomorrow in Los Angeles
and knowing how important that city is and its Jewish population in Israel, one would have to say this is pretty important tonight.
Yes, but what I did was I preempted tomorrow's meeting by at least having Michael Milken, who I see regularly on your show,
and some of the leading business people here in Los Angeles for a preview, if you will, or for a pre-gathering.
I just have to tell you that I find that one of the things that we're trying to do in Israel right now,
to create it as one big Silicon Valley of the Eastern Hemisphere, is in many ways to mirror what has already happened here in California,
the original Silicon Valley. And I was very pleased to hear from some of the high-tech people,
for example from the Oracle Company, how much they draw on Israeli technology, on Israeli ingenuity,
to develop their own products in their own markets. So we'd like to do more of that.
I wish I could stay here more and spend time with the business leaders, but we'll come back.
Tell me about your conversation today with Egyptian President Mubarak.
Well, I called him up after we heard about this horrible attack in Egypt.
You know that our region is not the friendliest of neighborhoods.
I said today to some Californians who remark on the similarity of scenery and climate between California and Israel,
I said there's one thing different. We live in a tougher neighborhood.
And I know there are some tough neighborhoods in Los Angeles too, but believe me, we live with some very tough neighbors.
The problem of radicalism and the fundamentalism plagues the entire area from North Africa, from Algeria to the Persian Gulf.
It struck yesterday in a bloody way in Egypt. And I said to Mubarak that I think every citizen of Israel,
every Israeli understands what the people of Egypt, the government of Egypt, are now going through with this horrible bloodletting.
And you also, as you know, as we've discussed many times, you may have written the definitive book on terrorism.
One of the toughest things about it is if the culprit is willing to give up his life, very hard to stop.
They all died in Egypt, right? The culprits died.
Yes and no. Usually the people who are willing to die are launched by people who aren't willing to die.
And there's a whole organization that launches these things, especially in our case,
the Hamas terrorists who are willing to commit suicide, are really the tip of a pyramid of a whole organization that equips them,
gives them the ammunition or gives them the explosives, directs them to the target, takes them to the site and so on.
It's a whole operation of people who want very much to live. And it is at them that you have to strike.
That is what we've essentially been asking the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat to do,
to deprive these terrorists of the bases in Palestinian territory from which they set out to attack innocent people in Israel.
You and President Clinton both in Los Angeles today, and there's no planned visit,
and a lot of people are reading into this that the President snubbed you. Any reaction?
Well, I think that leaders should meet. I think especially leaders of democratic countries, elected leaders, ought to meet and talk.
I understand that the United States is suggesting that we meet in the early part of December, I think it's December 8th.
So we'll meet then.
So you'll come back and visit the White House?
Well, I don't know. We didn't set the exact location, but there are always things to talk about.
The Middle East never lets you be bored for a minute.
The President wrote you a letter about Iraq urging you not to become involved in the dispute.
How did you react to that? Or is that true?
I didn't react to it because he didn't write me such a letter.
Have you seen reports that such a letter was sent?
I see so many things in the newspapers that I usually don't react to them.
Help us out. There was no letter to you from President Clinton.
No, I'm reminded sometimes when I read these reports of what Thomas Jefferson said.
He said a person who reads nothing is better educated than a person who reads nothing but newspapers.
I don't necessarily subscribe to that, but on occasion when I read incorrect reports, I'm reminded of that saying.
In any case, no, he didn't write me a letter on that.
We are obviously looking, Larry, at all the possibilities of what could develop.
We hope that this thing will be resolved with no military confrontation, but we're prepared for all eventualities.
We will act within our interests.
We'll take a break. We'll be right back with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, at the bottom of the hour, Barry Sheck. Don't go away.
LARRY KING
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We're back with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu.
Much written and talked in conjectured about your meeting with Madeleine Albright.
It was described in some circles as hostile. Is that a fair word?
Well again, I wouldn't have described it as hostile at all. I would have described it as a very open, serious, and I think purposeful meeting.
It was described by both of us as useful and I think that's the way I would describe it and that's the way she described it.
What it meant to do was to seek a way to move the peace process forward.
And the reason it's been stymied from our point of view is simply this.
Robin Winnie described the Oslo Peace Accord said, it boils down to Israel giving the Palestinians territory and the Palestinians giving Israel a pledge to fight the terrorism from within that territory.
We've kept our part of the bargain, we've given them land, but they failed to live to their part of the bargain by not fighting terrorism in the way that they're supposed to.
And did she understand that?
All I've been saying to Arafat, sorry?
Did she understand that? Did she say you?
Oh, I think she understands. I think the United States understands the primacy we place on security because if you talk peace, it's not enough. If you want peace, it's not enough.
You have to insist on the conditions which make peace a reality. And peace and exploding bombs don't go together.
So we have every right to demand of the Palestinians to live up to their promise to fight terrorism in the territories they received.
Otherwise, how can they ask us to give them more territory?
We don't want to create bigger terrorist bases around us. That is essentially the stumbling block that we see.
And if it's overcome, if there is a deliberate and systematic effort against terrorism on the Palestinian side, and I hope we'll have it,
then I think we can move very quickly to accelerate the negotiations maybe six, nine months, possibly 12 months if necessary.
Really?
To arrive at a, fast-track negotiations to arrive at a historic settlement between Israelis and Palestinians.
We want to do it. We're prepared to do it. I think we're the only government in Israel, in Israel's history that is able to do it
because we summon the support of 80 percent of the people when we come down and make decisions.
And that's what I'd like to do. I'd like to see Arafat fight terrorism, and then I'd like to see him and me negotiate on a fast-track to a permanent agreement of peace
between Israel and the Palestinians.
In keeping with the Oslo Accord?
Very much so.
It's also an Israeli newspaper reported that Madeleine Albright quotes said to you,
sit quietly and stop making declarations about Iraq. Is that true?
No. I have to tell you, there is no relationship of the kind that you describe where the United States sort of by fiat orders Israel do this or do that.
It just doesn't work like that. You know, we're a sovereign country. The United States is a sovereign country, obviously.
We respect one another. We're allies. We don't talk like that. No one has talked to me like that.
But she might have said, I recommend that let us handle Iraq. Stay quiet on it. That would be as a recommendation. You don't have to listen.
Well, first of all, be my guest. We support the President in dealing with Iraq. He's now facing down Saddam Hussein.
I think he deserves the support of people who cherish peace and freedom and stability everywhere. He certainly has our support.
Do you think he's doing a good job vis-à-vis the Middle East?
Yes. I think by and large there is a purposeful American involvement, purposeful in the sense that the purpose is peace and stability.
It's not easy. It's not an instant solution. You don't take, in our case, a teaspoon of peace, a teaspoon of security.
You mix it together and you have peace and security overnight. You have to change course.
You have to make sure that the Palestinians live up to their promises. You have to make sure that security is the foundation of peace.
And these things are tough. I could be very forthcoming. I could just turn a blind eye.
I could give and give and give and receive nothing in return. In fact, receive insecurity for security.
I'll be applauded for five minutes. I'll be banqueted for ten. I'll be given some prize in the next fifteen.
It doesn't mean anything because what I want is a peace that will endure for my children, for their children, for centuries.
And it has been the experience in this century that to achieve that kind of peace in difficult neighborhoods,
you have to insist to stand strongly on your principles, to stand on your convictions,
sometimes in the face of very bitter criticism and, in fact, unfair criticism.
But that's the test of leadership. You have to be able to sustain criticism and unpopularity for a time.
Secretary Albright did say publicly, and we wonder what your interpretation was of, we will finish the job.
Which job?
I guess it's about Iraq.
Well, I think that everyone hopes that they will finish the job, that the U.S. will get Saddam Hussein to comply with the inspections.
He obviously has had a period in which there has been no inspections.
But he made a conciliatory kind of offer today, didn't he? He doesn't want to go to war. Americans can be involved in inspections.
Well, good. I hope it moves that way. But the point I'm making is that there has been a period without inspectors,
and he may have used that period for his own design.
The important thing from anyone's point of view, anyone concerned with peace, is that Saddam not emerge with any gains from this exercise,
and that he is brought back to the position where there is supervision on his attempts to develop nuclear weapons and other nonconventional weapons.
You think we should have gone farther back in the 91?
Oh, the Gulf War?
Yeah.
Never fight those. Never plan for the last war. And let's hope there is not a next war.
We'll be right back with the Prime Minister of Israel on Larry King Live. Don't go away.
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We're back with Benjamin Netanyahu. Tomorrow night, former President Jimmy Carter will be our guest.
Concerning that, Mr. Prime Minister, would Jimmy Carter be the kind of person that you or others would call on for helping in the Middle East?
Well, I'm calling on President Clinton because when I said that we'd move on a fast track negotiation for a peace between us and the Palestinians,
I said in a few months' time we can close the gaps. There will always be that last quarter of a mile that we have to cross.
And that's where I would like to convene a Camp David style summit with President Clinton and with the Assad RFI,
and try to narrow down these details or these gaps to a final settlement.
But President Carter, since he was so involved, might be pretty good in the middle here, wouldn't he?
Yes, but I don't know how many cooks you can have stirring the broth.
All right, now let's discuss Prime Minister Netanyahu and this worsening crisis over Jewish identity.
The reports we get are the Orthodox representing about 20 percent of the Jewry in America, more than that probably in Israel, if so,
say that unless you're Orthodox, you're not Jewish. If you're reformed or conservative, you're not Jewish.
What is the Netanyahu position on this?
Well, I reject that completely, but I think most Israelis do as well, and indeed most Orthodox people reject it,
because essentially it doesn't make any difference if you're reformed or conservative or Orthodox,
all part of the Jewish people, all Jews, equally legitimate, equally kosher, if I can say.
What then is this proposal in the Parliament?
Well, there is a great deal of misinformation, if not disinformation.
Israel has always recognized reformed conversions done outside Israel.
So most of the conversions done, say all of the conversions done in the United States by reformed rabbis are fully accepted in Israel.
The issue that is in hand are those conversions done by reformed rabbis inside Israel, not those done in the United States or outside the country.
And we've had a long practice in the last 50 years since the establishment of the state that those conversions are done only by the rabbinate,
which happens to be Orthodox, inside Israel.
Now that has assumed a life of its own, and people now think that we're delegitimizing non-Orthodox Jews outside Israel,
which is of course nothing of the kind, but since things take a life of their own, they have importance of their own.
And in order to resolve this issue, how we convert people inside Israel,
and how do we involve the various streams, reform and conservative Judaism, that don't have a significant representation in Israel yet,
but they're there, there's a first bridgehead for both of them,
I have sought to form a committee that was never constructed before in the 50 years of Israel's history.
And for the first time I've got all these three streams sitting together with the current finance minister of Israel
to try to fashion a historic understanding between all three streams.
And I think that the head of this commission, my friend, the finance minister, has a tougher job than I do.
I only have to negotiate peace with the Palestinians and the Syrians.
Nothing like a break in religious...
Is it true though that you do need the Orthodox?
They're a key swing vote for you in the Knesset, and therefore you have to at least accommodate them.
Well, I think that there are coalition realities that apply to us and apply to our labor opponents,
and they offered at one time to pass this or that law to satisfy the Orthodox parties.
But I don't think this is the issue at hand right now.
I think the issue is a much deeper one, and that is to try to fashion an agreement that will take the Jewish people,
organize Jewish life in Israel, and will carry the Jewish people into the 21st century.
So rather than viewing it as a crisis, I view it as an opportunity to arrange and cement Jewish unity for the next 100 years.
If we're lucky, we'll begin the process in a few months' time.
And that's still true that I as an American, but I'm Jewish, if I went to Israel tomorrow and declared citizenship, I am a citizen, right?
Absolutely.
You want to do it? Is that a declaration?
I'm thinking about it. I love your country, and Jerusalem is one of my favorite cities in the world.
I'm married to a Mormon. What would she be considered in Israel?
A Mormon?
Yeah, just a Mormon. She would have to convert, right? If she converted in the United States...
No, not to become a citizen. I think if she's married to an Israeli citizen, she'd be a citizen.
Oh, she'd be a citizen.
So I haven't checked the laws on that. But for two millennia, the Jews have not had a country of their own.
So when we established the one Jewish state after the Holocaust, we said that any Jew that wants to come to Israel and become a citizen could become one.
Then the question arises, well, who's a Jew?
Now, you know, for several thousand years, nobody asked that question. A Jew was a Jew was a Jew.
But about 200 years ago, Napoleon asked the Jews of France, define yourself.
And ever since, things have never gotten back on track.
We'll be back with our remaining moments.
We're trying to get them back on track.
We'll be back with our remaining moments with Prime Minister Netanyahu right after this.
And as always, we'll be back with our remaining moments with Prime Minister Netanyahu right after this.
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We're back with our remaining moments with the Prime Minister of Israel
who heads for London tonight and some meetings
and cut short of Los Angeles Day, but did meet with business leaders in Los Angeles today.
It has been a tough year and every time we turn around it seems something is beleaguering.
Benjamin Netanyahu, how are you holding up?
Pretty well. I could use some sleep.
But other than that, look, I think we're doing the right thing.
We're doing the right thing in the economy, which we've just put back in the right direction.
And the investments, the foreign investments that are coming to Israel at a record amount in the last 12 months prove it.
And I think we're doing the right thing by trying to create these foundations of a secure peace.
None of that comes easy.
I'll tell you, being the Prime Minister of Israel is not the easiest job in the world.
But I like it.
What about it now that you've been nestled into it for a while has surprised you the most?
I think the tremendous concern with security,
the amount of time that you have to spend with the questions of security,
are probably what distinguishes this job from any leader of any other country in the world.
Israel still lives, as I said, in a tough neighborhood
and we have to make sure that our people are defended,
that they can go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning.
And to do that, somebody has to stay up long hours.
That has consumed a great deal of time, more than I expected.
And when you were ambassador to the UN, you saw it from a different perspective, right?
Well, I saw that more in the battle for public opinion outside of Israel,
which remains as necessary as before.
Israel has given a bum rap.
It's accused of all the deficiencies of the Middle East.
All the vagaries of fundamentalism and radicalism are somehow tossed at our door.
There are many difficulties in achieving peace in our area, but I think we can do it.
I think we can complete the peace with the Palestinians, with the Syrians, with the Lebanese.
If there's goodwill on the other side, we'll be able to do it.
But it's not going to be an easy process.
And it's not going to be an easy process, not because of us,
but because it's just difficult to bring two different cultures, two different civilizations together.
We are, at the end of the day, we're the ones who are responsible for our future,
for our children's future, so we have to take the necessary precautions.
And we do.
A couple of quick things on Saddam Hussein.
Pessimistic or optimistic?
About his retirement, about his...
About what could be armed conflict?
I'm not sure. I can tell you what I'd like to see.
I'd like to see it resolved without armed conflict.
I'd like to see the inspection regime stay for as long as it is necessary
to ensure that this man does not develop nuclear weapons,
or chemically tipped warheads, or missiles that can fire anthrax into the cities of the world.
I think I'd probably express the hope of the majority of your listeners right now.
Thank you very much, Mr. Prime Minister.
We know this has been a trying day.
You got a long flight tonight.
We appreciate you joining us.
Thank you. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, Larry.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
The Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu,
who's changed his schedule, flies to London tonight and gave us ample warning that
these are pretty important meetings in London.
It ain't just a fool change. A fuel change.
Well, see, Freudian slip.
We'll come back with Barry Sheck, next on Larry King Live, don't go away.
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Welcome back to Larry King Live, our next guest, one of the best known lawyers in the
country.
His most recent case, very controversial, he defended Louise Woodward in that historic
case in Cambridge.
How did you get that?
It's very strange.
A friend of mine is a lawyer for a law firm called Struck, Struck and Levan and they represent
the EFO pair company.
And what basically happened is he asked me for some advice when the case first arose
about getting some experts there to do a second autopsy and I recommended Dr. Batten to do
that and then that was denied.
And then slowly but surely recommendations were made for lawyers in Boston and I sort
of fell into it.
You never get out.
The old pair insurance pay you?
Well it's a very careful arrangement that people have to understand and that is the
old pair company paid the lawyers bills but there was an independent lawyer appointed
by the court to advise Louise and her family about all decisions and it was one of those
situations where if they were looking for lawyers who would listen to them, whatever
their interests were, they hired the wrong lawyers.
Was your legal team in coercion or concept with each other throughout?
Oh yeah.
This was an agreeable run for you.
Well this is a group of lawyers that I've known for a long time, people of the utmost
integrity and I should say one of the real differences between the Simpson case and this
case was our relationship with the prosecutors because even the night of the verdict which
had to be one of the lowest moments of my life, I was able to say without any hesitation
Jerry Leoni is a completely honorable guy, Martha Coakley as well, they tried a good
case, there was never an ill word spoken between us and we respect each other as professionals
even though I think they're totally wrong.
Certainly didn't happen in Simpson.
No it didn't.
What's your assessment of the judge?
This is a very unusual judge and everybody knows it.
His reputation in Massachusetts City is very, very tough.
He demands that a lot of lawyers, he worked us to death, he demands everybody really put
in a tremendous amount of effort.
He doesn't own a television Larry.
One of the great ironies of this whole thing is that the fact that the case started with
this poisonous pretrial publicity against Louise.
Eleven of the sixteen jurors who eventually sat to listen to this case actually said in
that one day of jury selection where Judge Zobel went to 150 jurors and picked the jury
in one day, they all said we have a prejudgment based on the publicity, we think she's guilty
and he said can you put that aside, try it 100% on the evidence.
They said yes, they're sitting on the jury.
But he, not withstanding all of that, the hardest thing for him I think in knocking
down this verdict was that everybody would perceive that he was going with the popular
will and he's a guy that everybody in Massachusetts will tell you marches to his own drum.
And it turned out not to be the popular, most people are saying she should have gotten more
time, she should have gotten, that's the typical opinion on the street is not 15 years but
not three months either.
Well I'm not too sure of that.
What was really extraordinary was by the end of the trial and the verdict came in against
us the polls in the Boston Globe showed 88 to 90% of the people in Boston which was totally
against us felt that it was the wrong verdict.
Then the night of the verdict I was paying very careful attention to all these polls,
the night of the, I should say when he knocked it down to involuntary manslaughter and gave
her time served it was still 56% of the people thought that this was the right thing to do.
There's been a backlash to some extent in the media about this but I don't think that
What do you make of that?
The media was supporting her and then they turned and it's hard to generalize, I don't
know what the media is.
Yeah it'll go back and forth on this because you know there's more to come on this, there's
going to be more science.
On the whole question?
Oh yeah, I think that it's going to be debated in the scientific community and opinions will
change again.
The way that the child died?
Yeah I think that also taking care of children will be debated.
Well that's the problem in this case to be frank.
I always thought that the parents were unfairly criticized from the beginning of this case
and it made everybody's job a lot harder, particularly the mother Dr. Deborah Eapen because
the issue in this case was never whether two professionals should hire full-time child
care.
I understand that that was bothering a lot of people, particularly frankly a lot of people
in the media who were in that situation just as me and my wife and I have been in this
situation and made similar choices.
So that's everybody was projecting their...
That was unfair.
Oh it was very unfair to everybody.
She made some statements in today's Time magazine Mrs. Eapen.
I'll read them to you.
I feel I'm the judge's victim.
Louise took away Matthew, the judge took away justice and we're telling, what are we telling
people in this case?
Commit a crime and lie, you get away with it.
About the judge, there was some ego thing going on here.
You have to wonder what his underlying biases are.
The whole thing was orchestrated, it was disgusting.
Now Louise lives in a presidential suite in a hotel.
A convicted felon has turned into the biggest opportunity of her life.
Pretty bitter.
I mean I don't think anybody could possibly blame her.
I mean she's in a position where she suffered this terrible loss.
I understand that from my own life experience what that's like and I don't think anybody
could possibly in her position see it any other way so I don't think we're just saying
that.
You both got angered toward her.
How could anybody?
I mean you know there are no winners in this case.
I mean there's a child on it.
Back with more of Barry Sheck on Larry King Live right after this.
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We'll go to calls momentarily with Barry Schaek.
The passport.
They still hold, who holds that passport?
The judge.
The judge actually holds it?
Yeah, it's in court.
Pending?
Pending the decision on appeal.
How long would that take?
We're going to try to make it as quick as possible although I'm surprised the prosecutor
hasn't filed a notice of appeal yet but as soon as that happens and the issue is decided
I'm pretty sure she'll be going home soon.
This goes to the Massachusetts High Court?
I think it'll go directly to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court.
And the appeal is saying, the prosecution is saying this was an error?
They're going to say that Judge Zobel abused his discretion but as even they've admitted
after the trial that is a very very heavy burden indeed.
They would have to find this arbitrary and capricious and I don't think that's going
to happen.
Some have been critical that she's changed her hairstyle, she looks glamorous, she's
out on the road, is she preparing for Oprah, Larry and Barbara?
Absolutely not.
I mean we issued a statement right away.
I just wish that our brethren in the media would leave her alone.
You know that's the most important thing.
Are you still bothering her?
Well sure, you know we asked her to leave her alone.
We told everybody she's not giving anybody any interviews until everything is over.
She's not selling a ride, she's not doing any of this.
These people want to be left in peace.
They've gone through a terrible ordeal and yet when she left the courthouse there were
helicopters flying over and you know she's tailed every day.
It's a tough situation.
What was she like as a client?
She's a remarkable young woman.
You know very poised, very brave.
You know she's done absolutely everything that she could throughout this entire proceeding
to give signals to people that she's innocent.
I mean we had a real dilemma at the very beginning because we couldn't get her out on bail because
she was charged with first degree murder and as a consequence we wanted to do a lie detector
test with the top guy in the country but we were very nervous that if we went in and we
did a lie detector test in the jail something could leak out if it was inconclusive or if
she failed it, whatever.
And we had no choice so we went and we did that lie detector test.
She passed overwhelmingly.
We had a pretrial hearing on this issue.
Then she offered to take the prosecution's lie detector test.
So you know at every stage of the game she has always opted in favor of the bravest choices.
What do you make about this letter?
I don't know if it was published or an ad from pediatricians expressing outrage at the
new verdict and saying there's no way the child could have been harmed two to three
weeks before February 4th.
Well there's a lot of answers to that.
First this was a letter that was written by Dr. Reese who was a potential prosecution
witness who never testified.
I was kind of hoping he did because when he wrote his report on this case he actually
put in his report, I've reviewed the autopsy records and the medical records and there
was injury to the child's spine.
It was what they call subarachnoid bleeding down the spine.
There wasn't any.
He misread the medical records because he like a lot of other people unfortunately assumed
that there must have been this violent shaking back and forth but there were no neck injuries
to demonstrate that.
And in fact the prosecution's own witness, the medical examiner, took issue with him.
So this letter is unfortunate because there was a number of pediatricians who were asked
to comment on this verdict without having seen the data.
You know and we're going to get this into the scientific community.
Why would they do that?
Well because I think that they had strong feelings that what was under attack was the
diagnosis of shaken baby and shaken impact baby and they wanted to defend their own and
say that they think that our hypothesis is a rare event.
Did you goof by not taking a manslaughter as one of the pleas?
Well we still stand by that position.
I mean it's a complicated question.
I mean we still think it was the right thing to do.
But did you feel when they said guilty, I goofed?
Did you say I goofed?
Well when they said guilty I felt awful.
The judge actually said it best in his opinion.
I think that he really recited everything.
He said number one, at the time we made the decision, he said given the evidence it was
a reasonable and appropriate thing to do.
If it had turned out right we would have been hailed as people of courage and foresight.
The other thing that he mentioned, he says, is two things in a jury trial in Massachusetts
which are elements of luck.
And that is who gets onto the initial jury panel and a very interesting thing in Massachusetts,
who are chosen as the alternates because you try the case to 16 people.
And then after the closing argument, after the jury charge, they pull off four.
You don't know which four during the trial?
You don't know which four.
And the problem here is that they took off the four jurors who we knew were our best
jurors.
And I said it the night of the verdict and sure enough right after I said that all four
of these individuals very, very strongly came out saying we thought that this was the right
verdict.
And when you think about it, the jurors afterwards have said that initially they broke seven
to five for acquittal.
So if you're looking at the 16 people, it started off 11 to five for not guilty and
with our four strongest people being off.
I think if one of them had been on, we never would have had it.
So if you try this case 97, 100 times, I think 97 times when they pull up the hat and it
comes out a little differently, they're going to be a not guilty.
Bethesda, Maryland, we got a call for Barry Schaegg.
Hello.
Hi, Barry.
Do you think the jurors verdict and the Louise would have?
What's the rest of the question?
I'm sorry.
Do you think the verdict and the Louise Woodward's case had anything to do with ill feelings
towards you because of your role in the OJ Simpson's case?
Why do you make it a theory expressed by some?
Well, you know, it's a it's a it's a tough question.
I would have actually liked during the jury selection to have the judge ask the jurors
if they had any strong feelings about the Simpson case.
He refused.
But I'm one of these people and I think it's borne out by some polling we did before the
trial and other matters.
I think that when 12 people or 16 people, however many, you know, are conscientiously
considering the evidence and sitting in judgment on a 19 year old girl, they are not going
to be saying, oh, I'm really upset about the OJ Simpson case.
Therefore, I'm going to decide this case one way or the other.
I want to feel that people are like that because Judge Edo wasn't crazy about you, right?
I mean, you you you're a New York kid, very bright lawyer, but there are some parts of
the country where you upset people.
Yeah.
You upset people in Massachusetts, do you think?
Oh, I don't think so.
As a matter of fact, one of the strange outgrowths of this case was that people had one view
of me during the Simpson case really shifted during this case.
And you hear it all the time.
And in the streets of Boston and I think everywhere, you know, people thought that, you know, we
did a very good job.
We fought hard.
And frankly, if everybody thought that we were doing so terribly or so abrasive, how
come this pretrial publicity that was poisonous against her by the time the trial was over,
the Boston Globe is showing eighty eight to ninety percent of the people think that we
were right.
We'll be right back with Barry Shack and more of your phone calls.
Jimmy Carter tomorrow night.
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Farmington Connecticut for Barry Shack.
Hello.
What an honor to speak with you, Barry.
Being in nursing, I would like to know why the pediatrician of the baby was never called
to the stand.
I felt there was something wrong with that baby from birth, being so slow to raise its
head and roll over.
At nine months, the baby should be much more active.
Well, actually, the pediatrician was called to the stand during the trial.
And in fairness, one of the things that we did at the beginning of the trial is that
we actually had some DNA tests run to see if there were any genetic problems.
Was there?
Well, not in the tests that we ran, although it's hard to be definitive about it, but I
don't think that was the cause.
I think medically we proved what the cause was, that this was an injury that was three
weeks old.
We proved...
And aggravated that day.
You did say your client made some mistake.
Well, I mean, no.
I mean, actually, what we proved, I think, incontrovertibly, is that the skull fracture
was three weeks old and that there was an old subdural hematoma that rebleed.
And a rebleed can be caused spontaneously, it could be caused by any kind of trivial
...
But you didn't say your client didn't shake her or didn't do anything.
Your client didn't just walk into a room and the baby was dead.
No.
What our client did that day is when the baby began to fail around 3.30 in the afternoon,
she did some arousal shaking, but nobody, not even the prosecution, contends that that
could have anyway caused injuries.
This was a real unfortunate situation where we were able to put before the jury proof,
which Judge Zobel accepted.
That's what people have to understand.
He accepted it.
Do you totally believe your client?
Oh, yeah.
To Draykett, Massachusetts.
Hello.
Yes, hello.
Good evening, Larry.
Great show, as always.
Thank you.
I'd like to ask Attorney Sheck a question.
Throughout the whole court proceedings, it was stated by the defense team repeatedly that
they totally believed in the innocence of their client, Louise Woodward, and never before
have they so totally believed in the innocence of a client.
I'd like to know, what was it about Louise Woodward that you did believe her so entirely
and completely?
Yeah, statements were made by the defense that were really incredible in this case,
and one of them did say, I've never had a client that I was totally convinced of innocence
so hard.
Well, Harvey Silverglade said that.
Actually, I've had a lot of clients who I can state without contradiction are innocent,
part of our Innocence Project at Cardozo Law School where we've...
You get people out of jail?
Yes.
How many have you gotten so far?
Thirty-two.
Thirty-two people.
Thirty-two.
On DNA and things.
Yeah, thirty-two, and there are forty-five overall, but these are cases where people
have been convicted, a number on death row, where through DNA testing, we're able to
prove definitively that they did not commit the crimes.
What made her so special?
Well, there were a few things.
Number one, I don't think you can ever state just based on credibility judgment alone,
something about the innocence of the client.
I'm pretty careful in the statements.
What I said, and I stand behind them entirely, is that the science in this case was overwhelming
in terms of being able to show that this was an old injury.
The charge against Louise Woodward is that she took this poor child and slammed him against
a fixed hard surface, the equivalent of dropping the baby from fifteen feet and having his
head hit concrete.
Now, that is twenty-one miles an hour.
What we were able to bring into court was not just that the emergency room doctors saw
no swelling in the back of the head, you know, no break of the skin.
We had a CT scan at the side of the fracture showing no soft tissue swelling, and a CT
scan is a very sensitive instrument for measuring soft tissue damage.
It's impossible, and all our experts, the leading experts in the country in these areas,
the neuroradiologists, they'll set it.
It was the evidence that made you feel that way.
The evidence.
We'll be back with our remaining moments with Barry Sheck.
We'll talk about getting innocent people out of jail after this.
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The Innocence Project, you get letters from people on death row, right?
Yeah.
You investigate all of them?
Yeah, we do.
Peter Neufeld and I have this project at Cardozo Law School where I've been teaching for 19 years.
It's free to everyone?
Yes.
What happens is people write us who are in jail, and they say I'm innocent.
Now, a lot of them aren't.
But if there's a case that usually existed prior to DNA testing, where you can get some biological evidence
that will be determinative on the issue of guilt or innocence, we can test that and demonstrate that they're innocent.
We've done that just ourselves 32 times.
And you got Donald, Ronald Jones coming, he's going to be retried in Illinois, right?
Yeah, that's a case that just happened this July where Ronald Jones was a man in Chicago who was on death row.
He came with a group of lawyers in Chicago, you know, we assisted them, and we got the Illinois Supreme Court to order DNA testing,
and the DNA testing occurred, and his conviction was vacated.
Now the prosecutors in Illinois have to decide whether to retry him.
Well, they haven't decided yet.
Well, they're still deciding, but if they decide to retry him, I'm going to be there.
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That's correct, yeah.
Last call, Apple Valley, Minnesota. Hello.
Yeah, good evening, Larry. Had a question for Mr. Sheck.
Sure.
I was a little disturbed. It seems that the only time you're questioning the intelligence of the jury is when the verdict doesn't go your way,
if you're comparing the O.J. Simpson trial to the Boston.
Well, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
I actually am the person that's in favor of the jury system, and I have great respect for the verdicts of juries.
It's the best system we have. That doesn't mean it's a perfect system.
And we have a safety valve in our system where when the verdict goes wrong,
in the judgment of a judge who has seen the evidence and has the power to change that verdict in the interest of justice.
And it's not just any case. It's a rare case.
Except in a not guilty to guilty. You can't say, I think Simpson did it, you're going to jail.
Absolutely not.
Equital can't get this done.
It's a different part of the system.
Thank you so much, Barry. Always great seeing you.
Thanks so much, Larry.
Barry Schaek, the attorney for Louise Woodward, who, and again, he is co-founder along with Peter Neufeldt of the Innocence Project.
Tomorrow night, Jimmy Carter will be with us, plus some new information and new tapes involving the royal family.
The 50th wedding anniversary of Elizabeth and Philip is also tomorrow.
And on Wednesday night, Jerry Seinfeld will be with us.
And Thursday night, our lady from Great Britain, the, what do we call her?
What would be the proper name for her? She's the dukes. She's the duchess.
She's a good friend. She's a lot of fun.
That's Thursday. We'll see you tomorrow night. Thanks for joining us and good night.