What a difference the day makes, a magazine just for you.
In this week's Woman's Day, Princess Margaret shows us her island retreat and talks candidly
about the only piece of the world she actually owns.
Doug and Margot Anthony reveal her retirement has revitalized their marriage.
Reg Grundy's wife tells of her love for TV's King of the Quizzes.
Plus, there's an eight-page wait watch's book of recipes for microwave cooking, all in
Woman's Day.
What a difference the day makes to you.
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I and J tasty fish fingers.
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All right we're going to make the audience the jury.
Let me tell you the story.
We'll fill in the blanks later.
This is Susan Rupp who lives with and loves very much Eric Swanson.
She happens to be a physician.
He's a controller.
They love kittens, Girl Scout cookies and all good things.
Church picnics as well.
They do have a problem.
They are not married and they are living in an area of Denver Colorado that does not allow
an ordinance disallows the cohabitation of two people who are not blood relatives and
are not married.
The original idea of the ordinance was to ensure that hippies didn't move in.
Some have suggested it's anti-gay etc.
They are saying wait a minute.
This is our business.
The Constitution has no right to tell us as long as we cut our grass and do all the right
things and pay our taxes.
You agree with them?
What about the neighbors?
They have a right.
Why can't you pass an ordinance as long as it's fully concurred?
There's a consultation with the people who are directly affected.
This is an American situation and you ought to be able to shape the neighborhood the way
you want it shaped.
So if the motorcycle gang wants to move into your neighborhood, that's their right.
They should be able to.
Well, what do you mean?
Well I hope you're confused.
Now this is the another situation about which we will be speaking.
I'm working backwards here so I want to make sure I know.
Gil Montoya, proud owner of La Paz restaurant in Boulder Colorado, home of the University
of Colorado.
Richard Savino is here, a customer at his restaurant.
He gives ladies discounts on drinks.
Here's the bad news.
Richard Savino sued him because he had to pay more for his drink just because he's a
man.
He thinks that's unconstitutional.
He can't have a promotion that allows him to generate business.
What's wrong with this?
The good old free enterprise.
Why is the government coming in and telling his private businessman what he's got to do?
What kind of government do you want?
He's saying because I'm male I got to pay more for drinks.
This isn't fair to me.
He doesn't pay more.
And I'll tell you this, a lot of males are wearing skirts to his restaurant.
All right and finally, finally as we look at just some of the many incidents with which
our legal system is now struggling.
This is Alice Zook.
Ms. Zook is a teacher who was fired from the Limestone Community High School in Bartonville,
Illinois because 20 years?
20 at that school, yes.
At that same school?
Same school, yeah.
So you must be doing something right.
At least up until now.
She showed a tape to your phys ed class?
Yes.
Let me show you the tape she showed.
They fired her for showing this tape.
And lift your elbows and twist, twist, twist.
These are the dancers from Chippendale, Los Angeles, male strip joint.
Now that may prejudice you but Ms. Zook wants you to know that the purpose of this was to
show her students some of the contemporary ways that Americans are putting themselves
in a physical condition.
Two of the students in the class, after watching the tape, complained to the principal that
a tape which was they thought suggestive was used by Ms. Zook and she was subsequently
dismissed from her job after 20 years as a teacher at the Limestone Community High School.
Change coming up.
So where is this audience on this one?
I support Ms. Zook.
There's nothing wrong with that tape.
Tomorrow she's going to show naked males dancing.
What's next?
And the next day some male teacher will be showing women strippers.
Do you want control over what happens in your classroom or not?
No.
You're not buying this.
Tell us your feeling about this Ms. Zook.
I mean where do you want to start?
Just give us your briefest speech.
What is it that you resent most?
Well I resent the fact that they fired me.
I was shocked.
My family was humiliated and the reason I showed the film was because these men are experts
at aerobic dance and they are professionals.
And I wanted my students to view the way the professionals did it.
You utilized as classroom teaching materials a videotape which was totally inappropriate
for viewing in a high school classroom.
Two you utilized as classroom teaching materials a videotape restricted to non-commercial home
video use.
Three you personally disparaged the students who complained about your use of the videotape
referred to in number one above in the classroom.
Four you permitted physical intimidation and verbal harassment of students who complained
about your use of the videotape referred to in one above in the classroom.
There are more.
Are you suing?
Are you trying to fix this?
Yes.
The American Federation of Teachers and the Illinois Federation of Teachers is supporting
me in this.
I'm in litigation at the present time and there will be a hearing and at that hearing
there will be a hearing officer will be selected and he will not be from Peoria or from Limestone
High School.
He will be from somewhere in Illinois or Wisconsin or some place that they select and he will
come and hear the case and they will present their side and I will be allowed to present
my side.
Are you suing through the federal or through the state or both?
I have to go through the state, State Board of Education.
They have to present the charges to them.
Would the federal also come into acting in this firing also?
I don't believe so.
Each state has a State Board of Education.
And at least that's where you've got to start.
You have to start there.
Did the exercises get any worse than what we just saw?
I mean there wasn't anything offensive in that.
They were all about the same.
They do some leg lifts and some other types of they do some aerobic dances.
Yeah.
The students, what kind of outfit do they have on when they're exercising?
They wear a PE uniform.
The men in PE classes or the boys wear shorts, shirts.
Isn't any briefer as far as showing it on the television than it is that they could
walk down the street in or at the pools or anything.
Why was the punishment so severe?
You've worked there for 20 years.
You say you could get a reprimand.
You don't go 20 years without making other mistakes.
Well I gave a survey and the survey was given to a couple of the classes and the superintendent
wanted the survey.
And I had not read the survey or even tabulated the survey.
Over 90 percent of the students felt the movie was all right.
And he said I had to give the survey up to him or I was insubordinate.
I would be fired.
All right.
Let me get Mr. Montoya on here.
You've gotten more press than you ever probably wanted to in Colorado on this thing.
Just briefly, what was the policy now?
Unaccompanied women got half price or all women?
All women, including the women that were brought in by a male.
Half price on drinks?
Half price on anything in the bar.
At the bar.
When did you first discover that you might have yourself a problem here, Gil?
Well when Richard Savino came in and filed a complaint against us.
All right, Richard Savino.
Prove to us you're not a wise guy.
What's your point?
I believe that I was a victim of a reverse double standard.
That it's a two-edged sword that on one hand discriminates against men and on the other
it exploits women as a marketing tool that only reinforces sexist conditioning and continues
that stereotype that women are animated sexual pawns, that they're there to draw men into
bars.
I think in turn in the long run that only retards efforts such as the ERA and parity
in pay etc. by reinforcing society's idea that women are sex objects.
Let's look at the reality of this thing here, okay?
Women in general on the average in the United States make 59 cents to the dollar that a
man makes.
You want your 50% drink, huh?
What's the matter?
Yeah, let's see him.
I don't think he went far enough.
I think women should be barred from bars.
Men have to have a refuge of some kind, right?
Phil.
The Victorian days.
We will have a police escort for you to take your leave here.
Then again, okay I've heard that argument of 59%, but that's a generality.
Not all women make 59 cents to every dollar a man makes, yet all women are entitled to
a discount.
Right there.
So what?
Also, a lot of blacks, Hispanics, Indians, unemployed, and a lot of males make less than
the norm, but nobody's giving them a break either.
Yes, but if you're taking a date in there for a drink, you're getting by cheap on your
date.
Exactly.
There's a law, okay?
The law in Colorado as in many other municipalities and states says it is illegal to deny equal
treatment for the goods, services, or privileges in a place of public accommodation, i.e. a
bar or restaurant.
So it is illegal.
When I won my case and they barred it in Boulder and in other places, okay they did it on legal
grounds, not just philosophy.
I mean we could argue philosophy all day, but it's on legal grounds.
I won it.
It's the Civil Rights Act.
You cannot justify charging one person more than or less than another person based upon
their sex, race, creed, color, etc.
I think the Office of Human Rights made a big mistake here.
They misconstrued the intent of the law.
Anytime you want to determine whether a law has been violated...
So you can keep somebody out.
Prime importance is you have to determine what the original legislative intent was.
When these human rights laws were passed, they were for the protection of your fundamental
human rights, not a drink price.
I bought the booze.
If I want to give it away, I feel that it's my constitutional right and my individual
right to give it away.
Well, are there no dissenters in this audience?
I am.
Well, I know you are.
What's the matter?
Yes.
You know, I agree with Gil.
I mean what he did, that's fine.
Was your sole reason mainly because of women making less money than men?
No.
And also a lot of bars today have the happy hour where it's men...
Yeah, it's for anybody that comes mid-mid-hour.
On Monday night we have sports night.
Saturday night football, etc.
It's 90 percent men.
Most of our customers are men.
I surely wouldn't discriminate against most of my customers.
This is just a one day out of the week situation where women are given...
If it was an everyday thing where women came in, that would be discrimination.
One day a week, ladies night.
What's the matter?
Then like Sunday afternoon, do you have it for the men for like two hours and then on
Tuesday you have it for senior citizens?
We give senior citizen discounts and that's also...
If you want to be technical, that's also discrimination.
But it's for a good cause.
It's also discrimination when you have a handicapped parking, but it's for a good cause.
He has a business and I really feel that he can do anything he wants to promote his business.
Let me ask you this question.
Can he keep blacks, Hispanics, or other minorities out?
It's his business.
We don't.
Just one second.
I know you don't.
And I understand why you would want to make that clear.
I'm trying to ask a good question.
No, he shouldn't and he can't.
So the law can prevent him from discriminating on the basis of race, but you're saying the
law should not prevent him from being able to sell half-price drinks to women.
What's the difference in terms of principle?
I don't know.
It's just an interpretation of it.
The point is the man has a business and all he's doing is trying to be competitive and
to promote his business.
He's really not harming anyone.
I mean, what about when people are 65 or older and they get senior citizen discounts?
They get the movie free.
Or sometimes when a kid is under 10, I mean, there's all kinds of promotions.
That's not illegal.
That may be technically discrimination, but according to the law, it is not illegal.
See, that's the same argument that Lester Mattakew is selling his chicken down south.
He's saying, well, it's my business.
I can sell to whoever I want.
See, there's no such thing as laissez-faire in business.
You can't just say, it's my place.
I'll sell.
I'll just charge whoever I want.
I mean, Gill is run, is ruled by, let's say, the state liquor authority, by fire codes,
by health codes.
And he has to accommodate all of them.
And also by the Civil Rights Commission.
And they say you cannot discriminate based upon sex.
It's also part of it is that it discriminates against men, but also, again, it exploits
women.
It's using them as marketing tools, saying, you know, we're bringing women into bars.
We know that men will follow.
It's a gay type of thing.
It will get business, yeah.
Okay.
Let me make a point here.
Richard Savino has made some comments, and he says that women are being used as, like
cattle, herded into bars and exploited.
Oh, baby, I say cattle.
I said baby.
Fed, you know, full of dry up one-liner.
You think that diminishes women?
They make their own adult choice about whether or not they want?
Women are intelligent.
They're not like animals.
They're not herded in.
I've never seen anybody herded in.
They come on their own.
All right.
They come in.
I'm Jim Robinson, father of four.
They're good kids.
Paul is at uni.
Julie, well, there's a character.
Scott and the youngest, Lucy.
It's been no picnic bringing them up.
I'm a man of my word.
When I say picnic bringing them up, I'm just grateful that I've got a great mother-in-law
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I feel like a lawyer running three trials at the same time here.
But let's stay with us now. And you're free, of course, to ask questions of any of these guests.
I want to just make sure you know what's going on here. This is interesting.
Eric Swanson and Susan Rupp, we've established that they are responsible tax-paying citizens
who, how many years ago, moved into the Congress Park section? Is that what it's called?
Back two years ago.
Yes, of Denver. Two years ago. Two years ago. Okay.
For reasons which really are nobody's business but yours, you have chosen not to legalize your
relationship by way of marriage, like so many other countless people living among us today.
And I'm really discouraged by that. No, I'm just kidding.
Eric Swanson and Susan Rupp are being told by their neighbors, some of their neighbors,
that they are not welcome because they're not married. Let me read the ordinance to you.
Ronnie, have you got that? This is at least part of what the ordinance says, which oversees
the RO zoning. This is Denver. Permitted uses in the RO zone do not include the residential capacity.
In other words, you can't live there if you're a person not related in accordance with the
definition of single unit dwelling, section 59-2 of the revised municipal code. Is that all? Well,
there's more to it, but it's a lot of legalese. What do you understand? Well, let me just get to
Mr. Sheehan. Guess who agreed to be here? Jim Sheehan is zoning chairman of the Denver East
Central Civic Association in Denver, Colorado. Let's make this point. He is not then a municipal
public official in any legal sense. He is rather the chairman of a civic association,
which is made up of their neighbors. All our neighbors. What's the purpose of this zoning?
Incidentally, my aunt could live with me, my uncle, my mother, any blood relative. Right. Can I have a
maid? Yes, as long as she's full-time maid. Why don't you just say she's your maid or you say he's
your butler? Because that's not a full-time job. It has to be your permanent occupation. It has to be
basically your full source of wages. What's the reason for this, Mr. Sheehan? The primary purpose
of the R-0 zoning was not, as you said earlier, to keep anybody out, but it was primarily to protect
the single-family nature of the neighborhood. This is an old established neighborhood in Denver,
a lot of single individual residents. I think it's pretty well established that people who own their
home take better care of it. People who have a lot of renters or who are absentee owner, the house
tends to not have the same care. That was the primary purpose for the zoning. The zoning ordinance,
just to bring you up to date on this, Phil, was not imposed by the city on any single piece of
property in Denver. The neighbors or the people who live in an area had to petition the city.
So on our particular area, there were some 850 or 900 people signed their name on a petition
and went to the city and asked that that area be changed from R-1 to R-0. So in this case,
the people asked for this. This was not anything imposed by the city. In order to ensure that
people didn't subdivide their own houses, so you had a tenant in the attic, you had one in the
bedroom upstairs, and the concern that this is more automobiles parked in the street, it may be
more visitors, it could be a party or two that will keep the neighbors awake. Okay, that sounds
reasonable. Phil, you can do that with R-1 zoning. R-1 says it has to be single family. You don't
have to go to R-0 to define relationships. R-1 says only one family, only one living in it. Why
don't you do that, Mr. Sheehan? Because R-1 does allow, it's a looser type of zone than R-0,
and it does allow certain business activities. And again, part of the zoning was to make this
strictly residential and avoid the business as well as the... Mr. Sheehan, I have to ask you, sir,
on the outside looking in, no one in this audience is going to have any criticism for neighbors who
want to do whatever they can to preserve their own neighborhood. I'm sure Ms. Ruff, Mr. Swanson,
Dr. Ruff and Mr. Swanson want to make that point too. They're interested as well.
But you've got to feel a little bit distracted by causing this kind of hubbub on top of people who
are so apparently responsible. And you're talking about a physician here, a professional comptroller.
Who wouldn't want them next door? We're not picking on the Ruffs or the Swansons. We're picking on the
principal. What if a group of 20 people moved in who were unrelated that tore up the neighborhood,
tore up their house, parked 20 cars around the block? Where do you draw the line? What if a family
moved in though who had 20 people and tore up the neighborhood and tore up the block?
I think that the Swansons ought to be picking on the principal of you getting into their lives to
this extent. They have the right to do that now. That's precisely our point that we bought it as
a single family unit. We wanted the joys of ownership and we don't want somebody telling us
what kind of relationship we have to have behind our doors. This is a civic group. Can't you have a
vote among the neighbors? And you said that that would exclude business things. Can't you have a
vote where you would let somebody like them in? These people have the same right that the 850
people did to petition the city council to change the way. Well, the zoning commission of the board,
the zoning board, the board of adjustments, the zoning board of the city tried to get the zoning
change talking to the city council and the city council refused to change the zoning. The neighborhood,
you know, even the zoning board itself wanted to change the zoning because they have so many
problems with it and the city council wouldn't accept it. Are you still as convicted as you were?
Yeah. Did they know about the zoning rule before they bought the house? We knew it was R0 zoning,
but we didn't know that it, I mean, we didn't know exactly what it meant. I mean, as far as we
couldn't live there as unrelated persons. The thing I think should be brought out also is that
it obscures the basic issue in my opinion that we're a man and a woman. The same thing would be
two widows, maybe one live in the house for 30 years and her husband died and she wanted a friend
to live with her. Forget it. Roommates of the same sex, you know, it's not just the fact that we're
a man and a woman. It's two unrelated persons. Now we have a real strong feeling, and Jim, we get along
with fine about the neighborhood. We have the nicest house on the block. We don't want to see the
neighborhood decay and we wouldn't want to turn the house into a set of apartments. And we have a
strong feeling of keeping that, that nice residential quality of the neighborhood also, but we feel there
are other ways to go about it than to say the persons that live there have to be married.
About how many homes are there in this subdivision or this district? I think that R0 zoning in the
entire city of Denver encompasses about 55 blocks. It's not just our area, it's our area and then
another area called Park Hill. But if your neighbors in this association for which Jim serves as zoning
chairman, the East Central Civic Association, there, there is the, there is the neighborhood.
As you can see, this is a very, very attractive neighborhood. It's not your basic cookie cutter
suburb. It's a place where clearly the residents care very much about their property and
and take pride in their architecture and all those other good things. What percentage of the East's
Central Civic Association do you think if it were, if we were to have a referendum would vote for you,
for you? Well you have a, you have a problem when you talk about petitions or referendums because
anybody who says I'm for that because I'm in the same situation, they become earmarked to be evicted
out of their house. So it's hard to get the support. But most people that we talk to are very much in
favor of the situation. They think it's ridiculous. They think, but you do have your dissenters, I'm
sure. You have people that want you out of there. When we moved in there, not a single person knew
us. I mean when we, when we had this hearing before the Board of Adjustments, 35 people showed up to
speak against us and people from other parts of the city that were in the particular kind of zoning
and they don't know anything about us. I mean it's not against us personally, but it is against us
personally because it affects our personal lives. And so but it was not neighbors like they know us
and they don't want us there. It's like they just are afraid of the system or something. They argue
if one couple can live there, why can't 30 unrelated persons be a commune? And that is how the,
that's how it initially got started was in the 60s and the early 70s when there were a lot of hippies
and this area is in right downtown Denver. It's a beautiful area. If any of you have ever been to
Denver, it's the most beautiful residential area in the downtown area and it was very threatened.
And it is, there are areas that were nice big old homes that were turned into apartments and have
decayed and it's very sad. Now fortunately those are coming back. People are buying those up now
and re-establishing them into nice homes again. So it's not lost. Where are you in terms of
litigation? We are not in litigation right now. So you're just sitting there? I mean are the brown
shirts going to come or what's going to happen? Well the latest thing that happened was that
they said they wanted to come and inspect and Eric said inspect for what? And he said he wasn't letting
them in voluntarily that they'd have to have a search warrant. And so we figured that he is
somewhere trying to find a judge who will give him a search warrant to look for the lack of a
marriage license. What's the matter? I was just wondering how do other cities in a country must
have this problem? How do they handle it? There have been cases and some cases not as good as
some cases not exactly our case but cases related to it that have gone up to the Supreme Court of
the United States and we have gotten information about those cases and almost all of them they're
different they're all different they're mostly more communal dwelling kind of places than
us of people living as a single family unit like us. All right all right let me remind you again
Alice Zuck 20 years ran a tape and was bounced from her job. Gil Montoya wants to be able to
promote his business in a responsible legal way and he thinks it's legal that he should be able
to sell women drinks at half price not to the approval of Richard Savino who sued him and won
and Eric Swanson and Susan Rupp would like to live just like they think the Constitution allows them
to live and they don't want this kind of government interference. Jim Sheehan joins us to say
he has nothing personal with Mr. Swanson or Ms. Rupp but he does have to consider the long-term
consequences of allowing them to circumvent the r-zero ordinance under which their neighborhood
functions. What do you think? We'll be back in just a moment.
Good day I'm Max Ramsey and I've lived in this street all my life. Maria's a wife and we've got
a son's got real potential. I'm gonna make Shane an Olympic champion. You'll have to forget about
girls but and is Danny the other boy sometimes oh sweary can't you boy. Hello Rodney. Hello.
What are you eating? Fish fingers. Not these they're tasty. I and J tasty fish fingers.
Well what makes them so tasty? They're just tastier that's all. Can I have a bite?
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